The First RINO: This is dated but still prevalent. The president and his supporters could learn something.

markc Loc: Tennessee

This is dated but still prevalent. The president and his supporters could learn something.

https://harpers.org/blog/2007/11/eisenhower-on-the-opportunity-cost-of-defense-spending/

Common_Sense_Matters

markc wrote:

This is dated but still prevalent. The president and his supporters could learn something.

https://harpers.org/blog/2007/11/eisenhower-on-the-opportunity-cost-of-defense-spending/

One man's Rino is another man's well reasoned leader, at least in this case. I agree with his thoughts in that article. We need our military, we need it to be as strong or stronger than our enemies, but we also need proper infrastructure too. The key is to try to find the proper balance. Fight the wars that need to be fought by us and stay out of those that are not necessary. Of course I am not saying leave our allies to their fates of course, just that we should not create a war where one is not needed.

EconomistDon

markc wrote:

This is dated but still prevalent. The president and his supporters could learn something.

https://harpers.org/blog/2007/11/eisenhower-on-the-opportunity-cost-of-defense-spending/

Before Eisenhower left office, he warned of the Military Industrial Complex. He was spot on with his warning. The MIC has become a large part of the Deep State that has been running America for decades. They control both political parties; the Bushes were big on the Deep State, as are Obama and the Clintons. Notable rivals of the Deep State were Kennedy (JFK and Bobby), Nixon, Reagan, and Trump. All made great strides to bring peace and maintain the peace on the planet. The MIC h**es that.

But, a question --- what do you think makes Eisenhower a "RINO"? He was a solid conservative Republican in every sense.

markc Loc: Tennessee

EconomistDon wrote:

Before Eisenhower left office, he warned of the Mi... (show quote)

Ike’s speech seems to support what would popularly be considered “socialist” today. You realize this speech was given just after the death of Stalin?

As far a deep state, the masters were Nixon and Reagan. You are correct about Kennedy being an adversary but left off Carter. Those were the only two presidents that shook up the CIA and cost both a second term, one their life. MHO

Carol Kelly

EconomistDon wrote:

Before Eisenhower left office, he warned of the Mi... (show quote)

Maybe, but in my estimation, he was an overrated general.
PATTON was the greater leader and MacArthur was up there. The only mistake Truman made was firing MacArthur. We wouldn’t have this mess with North Korea today. Ho hum, hindsight is usually better than foresight.

JoyV

EconomistDon wrote:

Before Eisenhower left office, he warned of the Mi... (show quote)

The military industrial complex is often thought of by those who don't study history as something which was on the horizon or just beginning when Eisenhower made his speech. It is thought of as industry controlling or at least heavily influencing government such as Cheny's Haliburton. But this is not what he was referring to. He was referring to the industrials who spent so much effort and their profits in the winning of WWII and wanted government to keep their promise of reimbursing them a portion of what was lost. This promise was made by FDR. By Eisenhower's term it still hadn't been kept, but industialists were pressuring him to do so. Eisenhower, like many liberals, blamed capitalists for the great depression. Not wanting to see there were many at fault.

Not all industrialists were so patriotic to put our nation's needs as a priority. But many did. For example, Kaiser shipping, the maker of the Liberty Ships which he churned out daily and much more. He received a few million dollars from the government, yet each ship cost about $2 million to produce. What he received barely covered pay for the workers. FDR had originally wanted to do as Hitler was doing and take control of industry and direct what and how they would produce. But after the failures in war production in WWI, FDR asked for advice from an industrialist friend who recommended he ask Knudsen. The result was ASKING industrialists to aide the war effort instead of compelling them, letting the industrialists decide what and how they could produce, and reimbursing ten cents on the dollar, and for needs which no industrialists could be found voluntarily or for which they did not have enough capitol to do the job, the government would finance a higher percent from bids. This reimbursement was slow in coming. Eisenhower thought industries sacrifices should have been voluntarily offered with no demands for repayment. He fought reimbursing industrialists his whole presidency. Despite their sacrifices, those that survived the war years went on to become eve wealthier than before with the experience and production infrastructure which came from it.

Liberty Ships
Of all the businesses Henry Kaiser founded during his career, he is best known for his World War II (1939–45) shipbuilding yards. In 1941 under the Emergency Shipbuilding Program, the U.S. Maritime Commission (USMC) began a massive expansion of the merchant marine fleet. A central part of the program was a standard designed cargo ship called a Liberty Ship. Designed for emergency production, President Franklin D. Roosevelt (1882–1945; served 1933–45) referred to them as "ugly ducklings." At first the USMC planned to construct 60 ships for the British, which grew to 112. The first Liberty Ship was completed on September 27, 1941. Over the next year, Kaiser shortened the time of production from 197 days for each ship to 14 days. The record was 4 days, 15 hours, and 30 minutes.

Each of the 441 foot-long ships cost about two million dollars. Each could carry nine thousand tons of cargo inside its hull and airplanes, tanks, or other equipment on its deck. A Liberty Ship could carry 2,840 jeeps, 440 tanks, or 230 million rounds of rifle bullets. A crew of forty-four would sail the ship and some twenty Naval Armed Guards would man the nine large guns, fitted for protection.

Constituting the largest production program for a single type of ship, a total of 2,710 Liberty Ships were built by sixteen shipyards in the United States. Another 119 revised Liberty Ships were also produced. The ships were built in assembly-line fashion, made from parts prefabricated at various other locations. Each ship had 600,000 feet of welded joints. Kaiser's seven yards built 821 ten-ton Liberty Ships and 219 Victory Ships, a slightly improved version of Liberty Ships. Liberty Ships comprised 27 percent of total World War II shipping. Of the 2,710 built, only 200 were lost in action.

The same day a ship was completed, its crew boarded and they set off to sea to join one of hundreds of convoys crossing the Atlantic or Pacific Oceans. The ships were named after prominent deceased Americans, with early American leader Patrick Henry (1736–1799) being the first. Any organization that raised enough money through the sale of war bonds to fund construction of a Liberty Ship could provide a name. In 2003 two Liberty Ships survived as public museums.

https://prospect.org/article/way-we-won-americas-economic-breakthrough-during-world-war-ii

https://ti.org/antiplanner/?p=550

https://www.histclo.com/essay/war/ww2/cou/us/aod/arms/aod-wk.html

And no. Eisenhower, though he was a Republican, was NOT a conservative. He was a moderate progressive. He called his ideal Modern Republicanism. Though he initiated or expanded many social programs, he also held tight to fiscal responsibility and insisted funding such programs not exceed revenue. He expanded FDR's social security, unemployment insurance, increase minimum wage, he was pro- labor unions and farm programs. He supported and spoke in favor of the National Recovery Administration (NRA). He instituted the Interstate Highway Program. He oversaw a 90% tax rate for businesses. He also created NASA, instituted the Department of Health, Education, and Welfare. Eisenhower also established ARPA (now DARPA), which was eventually responsible for inventing and building the Internet.

Carol Kelly

JoyV wrote:

The military industrial complex is often thought of by those who don't study history as something which was on the horizon or just beginning when Eisenhower made his speech. It is thought of as industry controlling or at least heavily influencing government such as Cheny's Haliburton. But this is not what he was referring to. He was referring to the industrials who spent so much effort and their profits in the winning of WWII and wanted government to keep their promise of reimbursing them a portion of what was lost. This promise was made by FDR. By Eisenhower's term it still hadn't been kept, but industialists were pressuring him to do so. Eisenhower, like many liberals, blamed capitalists for the great depression. Not wanting to see there were many at fault.

Not all industrialists were so patriotic to put our nation's needs as a priority. But many did. For example, Kaiser shipping, the maker of the Liberty Ships which he churned out daily and much more. He received a few million dollars from the government, yet each ship cost about $2 million to produce. What he received barely covered pay for the workers. FDR had originally wanted to do as Hitler was doing and take control of industry and direct what and how they would produce. But after the failures in war production in WWI, FDR asked for advice from an industrialist friend who recommended he ask Knudsen. The result was ASKING industrialists to aide the war effort instead of compelling them, letting the industrialists decide what and how they could produce, and reimbursing ten cents on the dollar, and for needs which no industrialists could be found voluntarily or for which they did not have enough capitol to do the job, the government would finance a higher percent from bids. This reimbursement was slow in coming. Eisenhower thought industries sacrifices should have been voluntarily offered with no demands for repayment. He fought reimbursing industrialists his whole presidency. Despite their sacrifices, those that survived the war years went on to become eve wealthier than before with the experience and production infrastructure which came from it.

Liberty Ships
Of all the businesses Henry Kaiser founded during his career, he is best known for his World War II (1939–45) shipbuilding yards. In 1941 under the Emergency Shipbuilding Program, the U.S. Maritime Commission (USMC) began a massive expansion of the merchant marine fleet. A central part of the program was a standard designed cargo ship called a Liberty Ship. Designed for emergency production, President Franklin D. Roosevelt (1882–1945; served 1933–45) referred to them as "ugly ducklings." At first the USMC planned to construct 60 ships for the British, which grew to 112. The first Liberty Ship was completed on September 27, 1941. Over the next year, Kaiser shortened the time of production from 197 days for each ship to 14 days. The record was 4 days, 15 hours, and 30 minutes.

Each of the 441 foot-long ships cost about two million dollars. Each could carry nine thousand tons of cargo inside its hull and airplanes, tanks, or other equipment on its deck. A Liberty Ship could carry 2,840 jeeps, 440 tanks, or 230 million rounds of rifle bullets. A crew of forty-four would sail the ship and some twenty Naval Armed Guards would man the nine large guns, fitted for protection.

Constituting the largest production program for a single type of ship, a total of 2,710 Liberty Ships were built by sixteen shipyards in the United States. Another 119 revised Liberty Ships were also produced. The ships were built in assembly-line fashion, made from parts prefabricated at various other locations. Each ship had 600,000 feet of welded joints. Kaiser's seven yards built 821 ten-ton Liberty Ships and 219 Victory Ships, a slightly improved version of Liberty Ships. Liberty Ships comprised 27 percent of total World War II shipping. Of the 2,710 built, only 200 were lost in action.

The same day a ship was completed, its crew boarded and they set off to sea to join one of hundreds of convoys crossing the Atlantic or Pacific Oceans. The ships were named after prominent deceased Americans, with early American leader Patrick Henry (1736–1799) being the first. Any organization that raised enough money through the sale of war bonds to fund construction of a Liberty Ship could provide a name. In 2003 two Liberty Ships survived as public museums.

https://prospect.org/article/way-we-won-americas-economic-breakthrough-during-world-war-ii

https://ti.org/antiplanner/?p=550

https://www.histclo.com/essay/war/ww2/cou/us/aod/arms/aod-wk.html

And no. Eisenhower, though he was a Republican, was NOT a conservative. He was a moderate progressive. He called his ideal Modern Republicanism. Though he initiated or expanded many social programs, he also held tight to fiscal responsibility and insisted funding such programs not exceed revenue. He expanded FDR's social security, unemployment insurance, increase minimum wage, he was pro- labor unions and farm programs. He supported and spoke in favor of the National Recovery Administration (NRA). He instituted the Interstate Highway Program. He oversaw a 90% tax rate for businesses. He also created NASA, instituted the Department of Health, Education, and Welfare. Eisenhower also established ARPA (now DARPA), which was eventually responsible for inventing and building the Internet.

The military industrial complex is often thought o... (show quote)

And you are so correct.
A RINO!!

markc Loc: Tennessee

JoyV wrote:

The military industrial complex is often thought of by those who don't study history as something which was on the horizon or just beginning when Eisenhower made his speech. It is thought of as industry controlling or at least heavily influencing government such as Cheny's Haliburton. But this is not what he was referring to. He was referring to the industrials who spent so much effort and their profits in the winning of WWII and wanted government to keep their promise of reimbursing them a portion of what was lost. This promise was made by FDR. By Eisenhower's term it still hadn't been kept, but industialists were pressuring him to do so. Eisenhower, like many liberals, blamed capitalists for the great depression. Not wanting to see there were many at fault.

Not all industrialists were so patriotic to put our nation's needs as a priority. But many did. For example, Kaiser shipping, the maker of the Liberty Ships which he churned out daily and much more. He received a few million dollars from the government, yet each ship cost about $2 million to produce. What he received barely covered pay for the workers. FDR had originally wanted to do as Hitler was doing and take control of industry and direct what and how they would produce. But after the failures in war production in WWI, FDR asked for advice from an industrialist friend who recommended he ask Knudsen. The result was ASKING industrialists to aide the war effort instead of compelling them, letting the industrialists decide what and how they could produce, and reimbursing ten cents on the dollar, and for needs which no industrialists could be found voluntarily or for which they did not have enough capitol to do the job, the government would finance a higher percent from bids. This reimbursement was slow in coming. Eisenhower thought industries sacrifices should have been voluntarily offered with no demands for repayment. He fought reimbursing industrialists his whole presidency. Despite their sacrifices, those that survived the war years went on to become eve wealthier than before with the experience and production infrastructure which came from it.

Liberty Ships
Of all the businesses Henry Kaiser founded during his career, he is best known for his World War II (1939–45) shipbuilding yards. In 1941 under the Emergency Shipbuilding Program, the U.S. Maritime Commission (USMC) began a massive expansion of the merchant marine fleet. A central part of the program was a standard designed cargo ship called a Liberty Ship. Designed for emergency production, President Franklin D. Roosevelt (1882–1945; served 1933–45) referred to them as "ugly ducklings." At first the USMC planned to construct 60 ships for the British, which grew to 112. The first Liberty Ship was completed on September 27, 1941. Over the next year, Kaiser shortened the time of production from 197 days for each ship to 14 days. The record was 4 days, 15 hours, and 30 minutes.

Each of the 441 foot-long ships cost about two million dollars. Each could carry nine thousand tons of cargo inside its hull and airplanes, tanks, or other equipment on its deck. A Liberty Ship could carry 2,840 jeeps, 440 tanks, or 230 million rounds of rifle bullets. A crew of forty-four would sail the ship and some twenty Naval Armed Guards would man the nine large guns, fitted for protection.

Constituting the largest production program for a single type of ship, a total of 2,710 Liberty Ships were built by sixteen shipyards in the United States. Another 119 revised Liberty Ships were also produced. The ships were built in assembly-line fashion, made from parts prefabricated at various other locations. Each ship had 600,000 feet of welded joints. Kaiser's seven yards built 821 ten-ton Liberty Ships and 219 Victory Ships, a slightly improved version of Liberty Ships. Liberty Ships comprised 27 percent of total World War II shipping. Of the 2,710 built, only 200 were lost in action.

The same day a ship was completed, its crew boarded and they set off to sea to join one of hundreds of convoys crossing the Atlantic or Pacific Oceans. The ships were named after prominent deceased Americans, with early American leader Patrick Henry (1736–1799) being the first. Any organization that raised enough money through the sale of war bonds to fund construction of a Liberty Ship could provide a name. In 2003 two Liberty Ships survived as public museums.

https://prospect.org/article/way-we-won-americas-economic-breakthrough-during-world-war-ii

https://ti.org/antiplanner/?p=550

https://www.histclo.com/essay/war/ww2/cou/us/aod/arms/aod-wk.html

And no. Eisenhower, though he was a Republican, was NOT a conservative. He was a moderate progressive. He called his ideal Modern Republicanism. Though he initiated or expanded many social programs, he also held tight to fiscal responsibility and insisted funding such programs not exceed revenue. He expanded FDR's social security, unemployment insurance, increase minimum wage, he was pro- labor unions and farm programs. He supported and spoke in favor of the National Recovery Administration (NRA). He instituted the Interstate Highway Program. He oversaw a 90% tax rate for businesses. He also created NASA, instituted the Department of Health, Education, and Welfare. Eisenhower also established ARPA (now DARPA), which was eventually responsible for inventing and building the Internet.

The military industrial complex is often thought o... (show quote)

Some valid points but I think the MIC started making a little more than $0.10 on the dollar well before Ike left office. Paying $400 for a hammer in the 80’s, jeez.

https://www.apnews.com/e1f0fe8dc2cd7c275f9fea1966e644c9

EconomistDon

JoyV wrote:

The military industrial complex is often thought of by those who don't study history as something which was on the horizon or just beginning when Eisenhower made his speech. It is thought of as industry controlling or at least heavily influencing government such as Cheny's Haliburton. But this is not what he was referring to. He was referring to the industrials who spent so much effort and their profits in the winning of WWII and wanted government to keep their promise of reimbursing them a portion of what was lost. This promise was made by FDR. By Eisenhower's term it still hadn't been kept, but industialists were pressuring him to do so. Eisenhower, like many liberals, blamed capitalists for the great depression. Not wanting to see there were many at fault.

Not all industrialists were so patriotic to put our nation's needs as a priority. But many did. For example, Kaiser shipping, the maker of the Liberty Ships which he churned out daily and much more. He received a few million dollars from the government, yet each ship cost about $2 million to produce. What he received barely covered pay for the workers. FDR had originally wanted to do as Hitler was doing and take control of industry and direct what and how they would produce. But after the failures in war production in WWI, FDR asked for advice from an industrialist friend who recommended he ask Knudsen. The result was ASKING industrialists to aide the war effort instead of compelling them, letting the industrialists decide what and how they could produce, and reimbursing ten cents on the dollar, and for needs which no industrialists could be found voluntarily or for which they did not have enough capitol to do the job, the government would finance a higher percent from bids. This reimbursement was slow in coming. Eisenhower thought industries sacrifices should have been voluntarily offered with no demands for repayment. He fought reimbursing industrialists his whole presidency. Despite their sacrifices, those that survived the war years went on to become eve wealthier than before with the experience and production infrastructure which came from it.

Liberty Ships
Of all the businesses Henry Kaiser founded during his career, he is best known for his World War II (1939–45) shipbuilding yards. In 1941 under the Emergency Shipbuilding Program, the U.S. Maritime Commission (USMC) began a massive expansion of the merchant marine fleet. A central part of the program was a standard designed cargo ship called a Liberty Ship. Designed for emergency production, President Franklin D. Roosevelt (1882–1945; served 1933–45) referred to them as "ugly ducklings." At first the USMC planned to construct 60 ships for the British, which grew to 112. The first Liberty Ship was completed on September 27, 1941. Over the next year, Kaiser shortened the time of production from 197 days for each ship to 14 days. The record was 4 days, 15 hours, and 30 minutes.

Each of the 441 foot-long ships cost about two million dollars. Each could carry nine thousand tons of cargo inside its hull and airplanes, tanks, or other equipment on its deck. A Liberty Ship could carry 2,840 jeeps, 440 tanks, or 230 million rounds of rifle bullets. A crew of forty-four would sail the ship and some twenty Naval Armed Guards would man the nine large guns, fitted for protection.

Constituting the largest production program for a single type of ship, a total of 2,710 Liberty Ships were built by sixteen shipyards in the United States. Another 119 revised Liberty Ships were also produced. The ships were built in assembly-line fashion, made from parts prefabricated at various other locations. Each ship had 600,000 feet of welded joints. Kaiser's seven yards built 821 ten-ton Liberty Ships and 219 Victory Ships, a slightly improved version of Liberty Ships. Liberty Ships comprised 27 percent of total World War II shipping. Of the 2,710 built, only 200 were lost in action.

The same day a ship was completed, its crew boarded and they set off to sea to join one of hundreds of convoys crossing the Atlantic or Pacific Oceans. The ships were named after prominent deceased Americans, with early American leader Patrick Henry (1736–1799) being the first. Any organization that raised enough money through the sale of war bonds to fund construction of a Liberty Ship could provide a name. In 2003 two Liberty Ships survived as public museums.

https://prospect.org/article/way-we-won-americas-economic-breakthrough-during-world-war-ii

https://ti.org/antiplanner/?p=550

https://www.histclo.com/essay/war/ww2/cou/us/aod/arms/aod-wk.html

And no. Eisenhower, though he was a Republican, was NOT a conservative. He was a moderate progressive. He called his ideal Modern Republicanism. Though he initiated or expanded many social programs, he also held tight to fiscal responsibility and insisted funding such programs not exceed revenue. He expanded FDR's social security, unemployment insurance, increase minimum wage, he was pro- labor unions and farm programs. He supported and spoke in favor of the National Recovery Administration (NRA). He instituted the Interstate Highway Program. He oversaw a 90% tax rate for businesses. He also created NASA, instituted the Department of Health, Education, and Welfare. Eisenhower also established ARPA (now DARPA), which was eventually responsible for inventing and building the Internet.

The military industrial complex is often thought o... (show quote)

Thanks Joy for the excellent history of the origins of the Military Industrial Complex. What really jumps out from that history is the concern for profits. The MIC may have been short-changed during WW2, but they made up for it later. War became big business, which enriched them handsomely. And that is what became problematic after Eisenhower. The MIC wanted war to enhance their profits. As the years progressed, any war was good. During Kennedy's administration, the MIC wanted to invade Cuba and take out Castro. Kennedy refused. The MIC wanted a first strike on Russia, believing that we would lose no more than four million people while wiping out Russia. Kennedy refused. When the missile crisis occurred in Cuba, the MIC again wanted to go in with guns blazing. Kennedy refused, and opted for a blockade. Kennedy did not want to go big in Viet Nam, but LBJ did. Kennedy was k**led and LBJ went big. LBJ's wife made millions on Bell helicopter stock.

Nixon was just a resistant to the MIC. Rather than d**g out the war in Viet Nam, k*****g young American soldiers so the MIC could go on enriching themselves, Nixon wanted to win the war and get out. His strategy was working, and Operation Arc light would have destroyed the Viet Cong and the Ho Chi Min trail. But the MIC countered Nixon's orders, and allowed the Viet Cong to escape and regroup. The MIC didn't have to k**l Nixon because he self destructed with Watergate. Nixon had good reason to be paranoid (which led to the Watergate break-in); the MIC was nipping at his heals all the way.

Reagan also defied the MIC. They tried to have him k**led just a few months into his Presidency. But Reagan survived and went on to end the Cold War with Russia and bring down the Berlin Wall.

EconomistDon

Carol Kelly wrote:

And you are so correct.
A RINO!!

Oh Carol, you folks speak as though social change is completely in the domain of Democrats. But history shows that Republicans have been the driving force behind social change. In addition to the list provided by Mark, here is a short list of major social accomplishments by Republicans.

*** 14th Amendment -- giving citizenship to b****s and other minorities. A Republican sponsored bill.
Senate v**e - 33 Republicans yea, 11 Democrats nay

*** 15th Amendment -- giving b****s the right to v**e. A Republican sponsored bill.
House v**e - 144 Republicans yea, 41 Democrats and 3 Republicans nay
Senate v**e - 39 Republicans yea, 8Democrats and 5 Republicans nay

*** 19th Amendment -- giving women the right to v**e. A Republican sponsored bill.
House v**e - 200 Republicans and 104 Democrats yea, 70 Democrats and 19 Republicans nay
Senate v**e - 36 Republicans and 20 Democrats yea, 17 Democrats and 8 Republican nay

*** Civil Rights act of 1957 -- A Republican sponsored bill under Eisenhower, filibustered by Democrat Strom Thurmond for 24 hours.
House v**e - 169 Republicans and 116 Democrats yea, 107 Democrats and 19 Republicans nay
Senate v**e - 43 Republicans and 29 Democrats yea, 18 Democrats and 0 Republicans nay

*** Civil Rights Act of 1964 -- A Republican sponsored bill, filibustered by Democrat Robert Byrd for 14 hours and 13 minutes.
House v**e - 138 Republicans and 152 Democrats yea, 96 Democrats and 34 Republicans nay
Senate v**e - 27 Republicans and 46 Democrats yea, 21 Democrats and 6 Republicans nay

*** Democrats were the party of s***ery, Republicans were formed in the 1850s to counter s***ery. Republicans, under Lincoln were responsible for the Emancipation of s***es.

*** Democrats formed the KKK in the latter part of the 1800s to counter freedoms that Republicans were giving to b****s.

Now maybe you could provide a list of accomplishments by Democrats. You could start with FDR, but he was likely a DINO.

JoyV

EconomistDon wrote:

Thanks Joy for the excellent history of the origin... (show quote)

But what might have been the outcome if instead of treating industry as a threat their patriotism was encouraged and rewarded? If publicly lauded for their contribution, the prestige may have meant enough to be a counter-balance to profits alone. If businessmen could put aside their profits during WWII, why have only a few done so since? It is speculation. But if you make a sacrifice and it is discounted or discredited; how likely are you to repeat the behavior?