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May 15, 2019 04:48:45   #
whitnebrat (a regular here)
 
The question is as follows: As a practicing Christian, can you support both anti-abortion and capital punishment at the same time?
It would seem that there is a fundamental conflict between those two viewpoints. On one hand we have the commandment "Thou shalt not kill" (KJV Exodus 20:13), and on the other hand you have the Biblical imperative of "an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth."(KJV Exodus 21:23-25)
To my way of thinking, you can't have it both ways. I have to give the Catholic church credit for their viewpoint on this, which states that they are against both abortion and capital punishment.
If you take the viewpoint that capital punishment is the act of a society and not the individual, I would posit that capital punishment is an act for which every member of that society is responsible, and therefore is equally guilty of violating the Sixth Commandment.
You also have "Vengeance [is] mine; I will repay, saith the Lord." (KJV Romans 12:19) This would seem to negate any possibility of either an individual or a society to take revenge on a perpetrator that violates the Sixth Commandment.
How do you reconcile these seemingly contradictory viewpoints?

| Reply
May 15, 2019 05:00:20   #
Canuckus Deploracus (a regular here)
 
whitnebrat wrote:
The question is as follows: As a practicing Christian, can you support both anti-abortion and capital punishment at the same time?
It would seem that there is a fundamental conflict between those two viewpoints. On one hand we have the commandment "Thou shalt not kill" (KJV Exodus 20:13), and on the other hand you have the Biblical imperative of "an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth."(KJV Exodus 21:23-25)
To my way of thinking, you can't have it both ways. I have to give the Catholic church credit for their viewpoint on this, which states that they are against both abortion and capital punishment.
If you take the viewpoint that capital punishment is the act of a society and not the individual, I would posit that capital punishment is an act for which every member of that society is responsible, and therefore is equally guilty of violating the Sixth Commandment.
You also have "Vengeance [is] mine; I will repay, saith the Lord." (KJV Romans 12:19) This would seem to negate any possibility of either an individual or a society to take revenge on a perpetrator that violates the Sixth Commandment.
How do you reconcile these seemingly contradictory viewpoints?
The question is as follows: As a practicing Christ... (show quote)


I doubt many would consider me to be a "Conservative Christian"... Though I am both a Conservative and a Christian...
But I do enjoy your topics...
Here goes....


KJV Exodus 20:13 should be translated as "thou shall not murder"....

There are plenty of verses in the OT that support capital punishment for those who commit serious crimes...

Abortion is a form of murder...

There is no conflict...


Exodus 21:23-25 references tha e punishment suiting the crime... We should not Execute a man for stealing a loaf of bread to feed his family...

Romans 12:19 is in reference to the ultimate punishment one faces at the Lord's hand...
As a society we are still required to protect ourselves....



Execute the scum who murder, rape, steal, abuse, etc...

Pray for the souls of those who commit abortion... It is a practice that should only be reserved for the direst of circumstances... Amen...

| Reply
May 15, 2019 05:53:05   #
Pennylynn (a regular here)
 
whitnebrat wrote:
The question is as follows: As a practicing Christian, can you support both anti-abortion and capital punishment at the same time?
It would seem that there is a fundamental conflict between those two viewpoints. On one hand we have the commandment "Thou shalt not kill" (KJV Exodus 20:13), and on the other hand you have the Biblical imperative of "an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth."(KJV Exodus 21:23-25)
To my way of thinking, you can't have it both ways. I have to give the Catholic church credit for their viewpoint on this, which states that they are against both abortion and capital punishment.
If you take the viewpoint that capital punishment is the act of a society and not the individual, I would posit that capital punishment is an act for which every member of that society is responsible, and therefore is equally guilty of violating the Sixth Commandment.
You also have "Vengeance [is] mine; I will repay, saith the Lord." (KJV Romans 12:19) This would seem to negate any possibility of either an individual or a society to take revenge on a perpetrator that violates the Sixth Commandment.
How do you reconcile these seemingly contradictory viewpoints?
The question is as follows: As a practicing Christ... (show quote)


First, the commandment is not "you will not kill" it is thou shall not "murder." (לֹא תִּרְצָח ; lo tirṣaḥ) Second, there is a difference between an innocent baby that has done nothing to warrant the taking of its life. It is a clean slate, an innocent. Now then, the bible references..... only Saul/Paul implies that vengeance is improper. The "old" Testament gives specific reasons to putting a person to death. The major, of course is for murdering .... disobeying the 6th Commandment. Now before you get into the price for causing death of an unborn child, that is for "accidental loss." The "old" testament does not permit or allow the murder of an unborn with one exception, to spare the life of the mother.

In very rare circumstances abortion is the only medical treatment. And those circumstances does not include "for the convenience" of anyone or for getting rid of an unborn child. I am pro prevention. As for criminals who has murdered, I am torn. I can see the merit for having them jailed for the rest of their lives without any possibility of parole. However, that could be seen as cruel punishment and it is very expensive. And there has been a number of cases where errors have happened and the wrong person is jailed. The bible, if you go further into it than just using it to prove your point, says that a trial for murder...... the accused must confess, there must be three accusers; even if one saw the murder happen, at least two other people have to have direct knowledge that the individual standing accused committed the crime. The modern day method of trial has strayed from the original intent of the law. So, in rare cases I think the person should be put to death.....if "he confesses and three people have direct knowledge." Otherwise, life without parole.

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May 15, 2019 06:06:08   #
Jimmy Boy
 
Morning Mr.Whitnebrat& Mr.Canuckus , hope all is well for you both. Capital punishment for some beings must be done, but only when all the true facts are known. Killing is one thing murder is another. We go to war to kill, one murders out of hate, lust , greed, envy, and most of all for stupidity! Abortion is about money and control. Not the women, but the people whom push and promote and LIVE off this evil lifestyle. They are some of the ones whom GOD will let loose his vengeance on! Real common sense is almost always right! All the best

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May 15, 2019 06:12:43   #
TommyRadd (a regular here)
 
whitnebrat wrote:
The question is as follows: As a practicing Christian, can you support both anti-abortion and capital punishment at the same time?
It would seem that there is a fundamental conflict between those two viewpoints. On one hand we have the commandment "Thou shalt not kill" (KJV Exodus 20:13), and on the other hand you have the Biblical imperative of "an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth."(KJV Exodus 21:23-25)
To my way of thinking, you can't have it both ways. I have to give the Catholic church credit for their viewpoint on this, which states that they are against both abortion and capital punishment.
If you take the viewpoint that capital punishment is the act of a society and not the individual, I would posit that capital punishment is an act for which every member of that society is responsible, and therefore is equally guilty of violating the Sixth Commandment.
You also have "Vengeance [is] mine; I will repay, saith the Lord." (KJV Romans 12:19) This would seem to negate any possibility of either an individual or a society to take revenge on a perpetrator that violates the Sixth Commandment.
How do you reconcile these seemingly contradictory viewpoints?
The question is as follows: As a practicing Christ... (show quote)


I posted a similar thread and provided the scriptures and position of early Christians here: https://www.onepoliticalplaza.com/t-58698-1.html

There are no New Testament grounds for resorting to violence or capital punishment, so says the New Testament Bible and the consensus of essentially all Christians of the first 3-4 centuries AD.

I believe life without parole is legitimate, and I also don’t believe letting people get away without paying for their crimes with jail time is right, but true Christians are commanded not to return violence for violence, that is an Old Testament concept.

Those who don’t understand what it means, don’t really understand that Jesus’ willing non-resistance to violence, as ultimately displayed on the cross, was God’s solution to the “problem of evil.” in other words, Christ’s love for his enemies, by not rendering violence in return, which he had every right to, is the solution to all evil. It is the reversing of the fall. And it is, as the Bible says, to heap coals of fire on evil workers because it proves that they were never justified in their evil, because even returning evil for evil is not justifiable.

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May 15, 2019 06:45:20   #
Kevyn (a regular here)
 
whitnebrat wrote:
The question is as follows: As a practicing Christian, can you support both anti-abortion and capital punishment at the same time?
It would seem that there is a fundamental conflict between those two viewpoints. On one hand we have the commandment "Thou shalt not kill" (KJV Exodus 20:13), and on the other hand you have the Biblical imperative of "an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth."(KJV Exodus 21:23-25)
To my way of thinking, you can't have it both ways. I have to give the Catholic church credit for their viewpoint on this, which states that they are against both abortion and capital punishment.
If you take the viewpoint that capital punishment is the act of a society and not the individual, I would posit that capital punishment is an act for which every member of that society is responsible, and therefore is equally guilty of violating the Sixth Commandment.
You also have "Vengeance [is] mine; I will repay, saith the Lord." (KJV Romans 12:19) This would seem to negate any possibility of either an individual or a society to take revenge on a perpetrator that violates the Sixth Commandment.
How do you reconcile these seemingly contradictory viewpoints?
The question is as follows: As a practicing Christ... (show quote)







| Reply
May 15, 2019 06:47:23   #
Jimmy Boy
 
To me violence and capital punishment are totally two different things! Also the GOD of the Old Testament and the New are the same. All the best!

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May 15, 2019 06:51:25   #
Canuckus Deploracus (a regular here)
 
TommyRadd wrote:
I posted a similar thread and provided the scriptures and position of early Christians here: https://www.onepoliticalplaza.com/t-58698-1.html

There are no New Testament grounds for resorting to violence or capital punishment, so says the New Testament Bible and the consensus of essentially all Christians of the first 3-4 centuries AD.

I believe life without parole is legitimate, and I also don’t believe letting people get away without paying for their crimes with jail time is right, but true Christians are commanded not to return violence for violence, that is an Old Testament concept.

Those who don’t understand what it means, don’t really understand that Jesus’ willing non-resistance to violence, as ultimately displayed on the cross, was God’s solution to the “problem of evil.” in other words, Christ’s love for his enemies, by not rendering violence in return, which he had every right to, is the solution to all evil. It is the reversing of the fall. And it is, as the Bible says, to heap coals of fire on evil workers because it proves that they were never justified in their evil, because even returning evil for evil is not justifiable.
I posted a similar thread and provided the scriptu... (show quote)


Well said Tommy...


| Reply
May 15, 2019 07:08:46   #
rafterman
 
whitnebrat wrote:
The question is as follows: As a practicing Christian, can you support both anti-abortion and capital punishment at the same time?
It would seem that there is a fundamental conflict between those two viewpoints. On one hand we have the commandment "Thou shalt not kill" (KJV Exodus 20:13), and on the other hand you have the Biblical imperative of "an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth."(KJV Exodus 21:23-25)
To my way of thinking, you can't have it both ways. I have to give the Catholic church credit for their viewpoint on this, which states that they are against both abortion and capital punishment.
If you take the viewpoint that capital punishment is the act of a society and not the individual, I would posit that capital punishment is an act for which every member of that society is responsible, and therefore is equally guilty of violating the Sixth Commandment.
You also have "Vengeance [is] mine; I will repay, saith the Lord." (KJV Romans 12:19) This would seem to negate any possibility of either an individual or a society to take revenge on a perpetrator that violates the Sixth Commandment.
How do you reconcile these seemingly contradictory viewpoints?
The question is as follows: As a practicing Christ... (show quote)


For me, easily reconciled. Against abortion (unless there are extreme circumstances such as threatening the life of the mother, pregnancy by incest, rape). Against capital punishment. The larger question for me is how can our liberal brothers and sisters be for abortion but against capital punishment? Kill the baby but spare the killer/murderer?!?. Come on man - Doesn't make sense to me!! It is a conflicting stance on the value of a life I simply do not understand. Whenever I talk with someone who is pro-abortion, I always ask their stance on capital punishment. If the are both pro-abortion and pro-cap punishment, I can at least respect their stance (even though I don't agree). Additionally, I NEVER try to talk someone out of their beliefs nor do I criticize them for their beliefs - WASTE OF TIME. However, I also try to understand when a pro-abortionist believes a fetus becomes a valued life. I find that most pro-abortionist come unglued when I tell them I think a fetus is a valued life is at the moment of conception. I believe that the medical profession says when there is a heartbeat, which makes scientific sense to me. Conception is more of an ideology viewpoint. (BTW, I also don't understand - and vigorously question - how any Conservative can be anti-abortion but pro-cap punishment. Don't make sense.).

| Reply
May 15, 2019 07:20:30   #
Zemirah (a regular here)
 
Before putting forth this question, if you had read any modern Bible that said "thou shall not kill," instead of the correct "Thou shall not commit murder,", there would be an asterick and footnote explaining the true meaning in the original Hebrew.

A legal execution by an authorized government is not murder.

It is the responsibility of the government to administer justice and to maintain law and order.

You are trying to equate an individual citizen with the government.

There is no contradiction.


whitnebrat wrote:
The question is as follows: As a practicing Christian, can you support both anti-abortion and capital punishment at the same time?
It would seem that there is a fundamental conflict between those two viewpoints. On one hand we have the commandment "Thou shalt not kill" (KJV Exodus 20:13), and on the other hand you have the Biblical imperative of "an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth."(KJV Exodus 21:23-25)
To my way of thinking, you can't have it both ways. I have to give the Catholic church credit for their viewpoint on this, which states that they are against both abortion and capital punishment.
If you take the viewpoint that capital punishment is the act of a society and not the individual, I would posit that capital punishment is an act for which every member of that society is responsible, and therefore is equally guilty of violating the Sixth Commandment.
You also have "Vengeance [is] mine; I will repay, saith the Lord." (KJV Romans 12:19) This would seem to negate any possibility of either an individual or a society to take revenge on a perpetrator that violates the Sixth Commandment.
How do you reconcile these seemingly contradictory viewpoints?
The question is as follows: As a practicing Christ... (show quote)

| Reply
May 15, 2019 07:29:04   #
Zemirah (a regular here)
 
TommyRadd wrote:
There are no New Testament grounds for resorting to violence or capital punishment, so says the New Testament Bible and the consensus of essentially all Christians of the first 3-4 centuries AD.


Tommy,

In the New Testament Bible," just as in the Old Testament Bible, it is the responsibility of the government to enforce law and order, and to administer justice to those who transgress it.

All citizens are ordered to submit to the enforcement of the law by Government Authorities.

From the book of Romans in the New Testament:

"For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but bad. Do you want to be unafraid of the one in authority? Then do what is right, and you will have his approval.

For he is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not carry the sword in vain.For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God’s wrath on the wrongdoer.

Therefore, it is necessary to submit to authority, not only to avoid punishment, but also as a matter of conscience." (Romans 13:3-5)


You are in error, presumably, by unintentional oversight... unless you assumed the government carries the sword in order to tickle people with it for their amusement.

Your supposition that "The cross, was God’s solution to the "problem of evil" is incorrect.

Individual faith in Jesus' death on the cross as "payment in full" of their debt for their sins, is God's solution to individual "sin," for which the penalty would have been death.

God does not rule by "consensus."

The opinions of Christians during the first 3 - 4 centuries of Christianity does not change what God has written in the Holy Scriptures which were completed and closed in 96 A.D..

Nothing can be added.



TommyRadd wrote:
I posted a similar thread and provided the scriptures and position of early Christians here: https://www.onepoliticalplaza.com/t-58698-1.html

There are no New Testament grounds for resorting to violence or capital punishment, so says the New Testament Bible and the consensus of essentially all Christians of the first 3-4 centuries AD.

I believe life without parole is legitimate, and I also don’t believe letting people get away without paying for their crimes with jail time is right, but true Christians are commanded not to return violence for violence, that is an Old Testament concept.

Those who don’t understand what it means, don’t really understand that Jesus’ willing non-resistance to violence, as ultimately displayed on the cross, was God’s solution to the “problem of evil.” in other words, Christ’s love for his enemies, by not rendering violence in return, which he had every right to, is the solution to all evil. It is the reversing of the fall. And it is, as the Bible says, to heap coals of fire on evil workers because it proves that they were never justified in their evil, because even returning evil for evil is not justifiable.
I posted a similar thread and provided the scriptu... (show quote)

| Reply
May 15, 2019 07:31:10   #
Rose42 (a regular here)
 
Christians can go to war under the right circumstances. Jesus was no wallflower. He is a warrior

"The Lord is a warrior; The Lord is His name. 4"Pharaoh's chariots and his army He has cast into the sea; And the choicest of his officers are drowned in the Red Sea," (Exodus 15:3-4).

God uses war to discipline -

"I sent a plague among you after the manner of Egypt; I slew your young men by the sword along with your captured horses, And I made the stench of your camp rise up in your nostrils; Yet you have not returned to Me, declares the Lord," Amos 4:10

We have the right to self defense -

"If the thief is caught while breaking in, and is struck so that he dies, there will be no blood guiltiness on his account."
Exodus 22:2

A case can be made for capital punishment -

“Let every person be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God. 2 Therefore he who resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves. 3 For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same; 4 for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath upon the one who practices evil,". Romans 13:1-4

"Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every human institution, whether to a king as the one in authority, 14 or to governors as sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and the praise of those who do right," 1 Peter 2:13-14

Its not simply an ‘Old Testament’ concept. Many Christians are divided on the subject.

Many use ‘turn the other cheek’ out of context. This doesn’t mean one can’t defend themselves. It applies to personal retaliation not criminal offenses or military action.

Exodus 21:24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand - This punishment matched the damage done to the victim. It wasn’t to exceed it. It also isn’t applicable to matters of personal retaliation but for civil cases.

Edited to add - part of this was in response to Tommy’s post which had many quotes but a lot of misinformation.

| Reply
May 15, 2019 07:59:17   #
Canuckus Deploracus (a regular here)
 
Rose42 wrote:
Christians can go to war under the right circumstances. Jesus was no wallflower. He is a warrior.


And yet he didn't...
What are the right conditions? (in your opinion)

Quote:
"The Lord is a warrior; The Lord is His name. 4"Pharaoh's chariots and his army He has cast into the sea; And the choicest of his officers are drowned in the Red Sea," (Exodus 15:3-4).


I find it interesting that God did all of this after He had "hardened" Pharaoh's heart...
I have always wondered at the justification for it... One of the things I have yet to reconcile about the Lord...

Quote:
God uses war to discipline

"I sent a plague among you after the manner of Egypt; I slew your young men by the sword along with your captured horses, And I made the stench of your camp rise up in your nostrils; Yet you have not returned to Me, declares the Lord," Amos 4:10


Yet we are not talking about God's right to kill... We are discussing man's...

Quote:
We have the right to self defense -

"If the thief is caught while breaking in, and is struck so that he dies, there will be no blood guiltiness on his account."
Exodus 22:2


Are all of the laws of Exodus still in effect?
Sweet deal...
(if not could I have a list of the one's that are no longer applicable?...Thanks)

Quote:
A case can be made for capital punishment -

“Let every person be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God. 2 Therefore he who resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves. 3 For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same; 4 for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath upon the one who practices evil,". Romans 13:1-4
A case can be made for capital punishment - br b... (show quote)


I believe you have just justified abortion...
Well done...


Quote:
"Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every human institution, whether to a king as the one in authority, 14 or to governors as sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and the praise of those who do right," 1 Peter 2:13-14


This one was one of the Quotes the Slave owners loved...

Quote:
Its not simply an ‘Old Testament’ concept. Many Christians are divided on the subject.

Many use ‘turn the other cheek’ out of context. This doesn’t mean one can’t defend themselves. It applies to personal retaliation not criminal offenses or military action.


Yet an incarcerated criminal is no danger to anyone.... Hardly a case for self-defense...

Quote:
Exodus 21:24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand - This punishment matched the damage done to the victim. It wasn’t to exceed it. It also isn’t applicable to matters of personal retaliation but for civil cases.


Assault is a civil case?
Not in Canada...

Quote:
Edited to add - part of this was in response to Tommy’s post which had many quotes but a lot of misinformation.


Which parts were misinformation?
Tommy clearly stated that the laws of the OT were negated by Christ's sacrifice in the NT?
No?


Note: I happen to agree with both you and Tommy on this one...

| Reply
May 15, 2019 08:06:27   #
crazylibertarian (a regular here)
 
whitnebrat wrote:
The question is as follows: As a practicing Christian, can you support both anti-abortion and capital punishment at the same time?
It would seem that there is a fundamental conflict between those two viewpoints. On one hand we have the commandment "Thou shalt not kill" (KJV Exodus 20:13), and on the other hand you have the Biblical imperative of "an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth."(KJV Exodus 21:23-25)
To my way of thinking, you can't have it both ways. I have to give the Catholic church credit for their viewpoint on this, which states that they are against both abortion and capital punishment.
If you take the viewpoint that capital punishment is the act of a society and not the individual, I would posit that capital punishment is an act for which every member of that society is responsible, and therefore is equally guilty of violating the Sixth Commandment.
You also have "Vengeance [is] mine; I will repay, saith the Lord." (KJV Romans 12:19) This would seem to negate any possibility of either an individual or a society to take revenge on a perpetrator that violates the Sixth Commandment.
How do you reconcile these seemingly contradictory viewpoints?
The question is as follows: As a practicing Christ... (show quote)



The criminal has committed a crime. The fetus has not with the exception of Original Sin a consequence of being human and fallible.


Now try answering this question, if you're a liberal non-Christian. If you oppose slavery, how do you support an income tax?

| Reply
May 15, 2019 08:23:37   #
jack sequim wa (a regular here)
 
whitnebrat wrote:
The question is as follows: As a practicing Christian, can you support both anti-abortion and capital punishment at the same time?
It would seem that there is a fundamental conflict between those two viewpoints. On one hand we have the commandment "Thou shalt not kill" (KJV Exodus 20:13), and on the other hand you have the Biblical imperative of "an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth."(KJV Exodus 21:23-25)
To my way of thinking, you can't have it both ways. I have to give the Catholic church credit for their viewpoint on this, which states that they are against both abortion and capital punishment.
If you take the viewpoint that capital punishment is the act of a society and not the individual, I would posit that capital punishment is an act for which every member of that society is responsible, and therefore is equally guilty of violating the Sixth Commandment.
You also have "Vengeance [is] mine; I will repay, saith the Lord." (KJV Romans 12:19) This would seem to negate any possibility of either an individual or a society to take revenge on a perpetrator that violates the Sixth Commandment.
How do you reconcile these seemingly contradictory viewpoints?
The question is as follows: As a practicing Christ... (show quote)




The bible does not say in Hebrew "thou shall not kill"
The Hebrew word is murder "thou shall not murder"
War is not murder
Defending is not murder

I'm surprised the Christian haters or should I say those that reject God and when their sin that they love living in is revealed they hate God, then reveal their hate towards God at those who love God.

Blinded to abortion is murder against the innocent

Capital punishment is killing the guilty of (in every case I'm aware of) murder.

The question is ridiculous to Christians and the answer so obvious but to God haters its not a question but a feeble attempt to trap believers in hypocrisy. They do not realize they are spiritually blinded.

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