Blade_Runner Loc: DARK SIDE OF THE MOON

I haven't read anything Spencer has written or reported on in which he has misrepresented Islam. If you provide the facts surrounding an actual event, are you misrepresenting it?

I have read the Old Testament, I have studied it, I have researched the background, I have read the commentaries of Bible scholars and there is nothing whatsoever in there about "intolerance of other faiths."
There is, however, an abundance of instances where both Hebrews who turned away from God and pagan and godless tribes were punished. Often in the harshest of ways.

On worship, Archbishop William Temple wrote: The submission of all of our nature to God, the quickening of conscience by His holiness, the nourishment of mind by His t***h, the purifying of our imagination by His beauty, the opening the heart by His love, the submission of our will to His purpose, all this gathered up in adoration is the greatest expression of worship.

This does not in any way describe the ritualistic, impersonal, highly structured practices dictated to Muslims in Islamic scripture. Muslim prayers are scripted, they are recitations of Salah, and they are not valid prayers unless the Muslim performs at specific times of day while assuming a specific body position facing Mecca.

There are no prayers as powerful, as beautiful and as heartfelt as those of Jesus, Moses, Elijah, David, Hezekiah, Job, Paul, and those of the disciples. The Lord's Prayer taught by Jesus tops them all.

One prayer that always struck me for its power, both in its eloquence and in its fulfillment, is in 2 Chronicles. When the kingdom of Israel was threatened by three pagan armies, King Jehoshaphat knew they were helpless, that his own army could not possibly stand against them, so he gathered all of Judah together and he stood in the temple in Jerusalem and prayed to Almighty God. Without a single arrow from a bow or a rock from a sling, the three invading armies were annihilated. That's what I call a prayer.

Canuckus Deploracus Loc: North of the wall

If you are biased in your presentation of the facts, certainly....



Punishment for not believing in the Lord is not Intolerance of other faiths? Hmmm



You realize their are Muslim scholars who have written similar passages concerning the worship of the Lord? No?

This is the problem with looking at an issue with preconceptions....



You are confusing Salaat with prayer.... Muslims pray outside of Salaat all the time...
Salaat is the worship of the Lord... Prayer is personal communion with Him...
And Salaat can be performed at any time... It is preferable to be performed at certain times, but one can do it at other times.. .



I agree that prayer is a beautiful activity..

Perhaps you would be more understanding of the beauty of Islam (and accept Muslims as your brothers) if you were more familiar with their prayers..
Try the first Surah...



Yep... Sort of Sounds like God is willing to destroy unbelievers... Such a message could almost be from the Koran

Rose42

One wonders if you even read them because they are easy to understand for a Christian or if you're playing a game. I've come across many who do that. I read them before I was one and I understood them just fine.

For one who believes he is a critical thinker you seem unable to do so with regards to the bible. You deny Christ's words when they are plain as day. You insist islam has the same God when their god is so much different and that too is plain as day in the bible. You string together verses to fit the narrative you want rather than using the bible as a reference. You don't know the basic tenets of Christianity and it appears you've made little effort to learn them.

Christ was no equivocator. He was clear and direct in His message and offended most people. They k**led Him because of it. Yet you deny the most important part of His gospel and call yourself a Christian.

Canuckus Deploracus Loc: North of the wall

If they are easy to understand then they are easy to explain... Your refusal to do so negates your insistence that you have understanding of them...

I will ask again... Please show me how the article should be understood... Thank you....



Excellent observations (sarcasm)...

Critical thinking is what makes me desire answers to my questions...

What frustrates me is when a 'true believer' attempts to tell me I am misunderstanding something, yet is unable/ unwilling to show me how I am misunderstanding it....



Which part of the Gospel do I reject?
That is a false accusation... and not appreciated...

Blade_Runner Loc: DARK SIDE OF THE MOON

Your defense of Islam and your inability to put Biblical events in context is troubling.

The destruction of the three foreign armies of Moab, Ammon, and Mt Zier was God defending His kingdom, not His will to indiscriminately destroy unbelievers.

Rose42

Sure. You put no effort into understanding them and did no independent searches.



You don't really want answers. You've been provided answers by a number of people but then go on to ask the same questions again.



You don't demonstrate a sincere desire to know Christ and the gospel. If you did you'd be searching and finding answers. You'd hunger for His word. You have never demonstrated that. You'd seek answers from learned men. You're very quick to say "muslim scholars...." but you don't reference Christian scholars.



You may not like it but its true. You reject He is the way to salvation when he says He is. Not *a* way. Your "understanding" of how and why He died for us is not biblical. He is not Lord over all aspects of your life. You don't think man needs saving.

To the question "do you Christ paid the penalty for our sins by incurring God's wrath on the cross and rose on the third day" you answered No.

You deny Christ. You may not want to hear it but you have to hear it.

Canuckus Deploracus Loc: North of the wall

Rose... I have answered the question for myself long ago... If I hadn't I would still be an athiest...
I have been provided with no answer that reconciles your position of there only being one path to God and the fact that there exist souls who will never know that path....




I have a sincere desire to know God and seek this understanding via numerous interactions and research... Also through prayer...

When have I referenced Muslim scholars?

I tend not to reference scholars of any faith in my debates... Either I can understand their reasoning and apply it for myself or I can't...
Do you ever notice how many members disregard the scholars of others? Based solely on the scholar not being a member of their denomination...

That is a problem... Either an argument can stand on its own reasoning or it can't...
The individual's (who makes the argument) personal information is irrelevant to the logic of an argument...



I reject anything that is demonstrably false...

I do not reject this verse of the Bible...
Only your understanding of it...
As you are unable to defend your understanding I see no reason to accept it as valid...



Correct... As I pointed out before your premise is wrong... Hence my answer...No...



I reject your understanding of Christ...
It would be foolish for a Christian to deny Christ...

Canuckus Deploracus Loc: North of the wall

Not defense...

Are you afraid that if Muslims worship God your own faith would be negated?

If you have read the Koran then you understand that Muslims are called upon to fight unbelievers only when threated...
Self-defense..

The fact that many Muslims fail to adhere to this commandment doesn't negate their faith..

Rose42

There’s the problem. You’answered it for yourself’ rather than letting the Holy Spirit guide you to God’s answer.

Elementery reading of the bible is missing. It is not *my* position. It is what the bible tells us. Clearly and concisely. One way. You will not find a Christian bible scholar anywhere that supports your rejection of Christ.






Thats a cop out answer. I don’t know any Christians who haven’t leaned on them for teaching whether it be via sermons, study guides or commentaries. The vast majority of denominations agree on the doctrine of salvation and justification



You most certainly do reject it. You can keep trying to claim its my understanding but Christians know Christ is the only way. You are in dire need of a good teacher not a forum. But if you research see how many Christians believe Jesus didn’t really mean what he said. Perhaps you should contact people like John MacArthur, Ravi Zacharias and many others - some of who have written bible commentaries. Tell them they all have the wrong ‘understanding’ of Christ and salvation. Or read old sermons from RC Sproul. Let his church know he got it wrong too. Let them know a casual reader of the bible got it right after centuries of Christians getting it wrong.



See above



See above.

Canuckus Deploracus Loc: North of the wall

Your position is that only the Holy Spirit can answer my question?

I'm sorry Rose... You are unable to tell me clearly and concisely the answer to my question...

And I in no way reject Christ...



My claim was not that I don't do research...
You misunderstood my remark... I do...
I simply incorporate their understanding into my own and then use my own words to discuss and debate...
I quite agree that one should seek multiple teachers and avenues of study....

The vast majority of anything agreeing on anything does not make it true.... Zemirah and you have been making this claim concerning evolution on another thread...




I most certainly don't....
Your version of Christians...
Seems there are several other members on this site alone that believe in multiple paths...

[quote]But if you research see how many Christians believe Jesus didn’t really mean what he said. Perhaps you should contact people like John MacArthur, Ravi Zacharias and many others - some of who have written bible commentaries. Tell them they all have the wrong ‘understanding’ of Christ and salvation. Or read old sermons from RC Sproul. Let his church know he got it wrong too. Let them know a casual reader of the bible got it right after centuries of Christians getting it wrong. ]

Is that what bothers you?

You think that I am trying to prove your understanding wrong...

Nothing could be further from the t***h... I was engaging in good faith in the hopes that you would have knowledge/perspective that would benefit me in my own journey towards the Lord...

I would never attempt to prove another's faith as wrong...

As Bdamage so aptly put it - we are each on our own journey towards the Lord.....

If I have impaired your journey in any way I ask forgiveness... It was not my intent...

I wish you nothing but brotherly love.. We are all children of our Lord...

God bless you, Rose....

Your friend, Kyle

Rose42

[quote=Canuckus Deploracus]I most certainly don't....
Your version of Christians...
Seems there are several other members on this site alone that believe in multiple paths...



You can’t prove biblical t***h wrong. Nor can any other non Christian on this forum. You are no threat. But that was a nice sidestep.

Canuckus Deploracus Loc: North of the wall

Nor is it my desire to do so...

I am sad that you believe us to be adversaries..

Be blessed Rose...

Blade_Runner Loc: DARK SIDE OF THE MOON

It is foolish to suggest that my faith could be threatened by Muslim worship. That you even asked such a question leads me to ask if you truly understand what faith actually means.

'Tis a shame that you have taken this all upon yourself to reason out. For centuries brilliant and insightful Bible scholars and theologians have provided commentaries that have removed many stumbling blocks for those dedicated to seeking the t***h in the Bible. Men like Thomas Aquinas, Augustine of Hippo, John Knox, John Calvin, Charles Wesley, John Wesley, Matthew Henry, C.S. Lewis, Ravi Zacharias to name a few, have done phenomenal work in understanding Biblical t***h.

During Bloody Mary's persecution of Protestants in England, Calvin, Knox, William Whittingham, Myles Coverdale, John Foxe, and other English scholars escaped to Switzerland where they began a project that revolutionized the Christian world. Prior to this, the Bible was not available to the masses, it was either too expensive or restricted to access only by clergymen. Moreover, Bibles at that time were printed in Gothic Blackletter Typeface and most people had difficulty reading it.

The work of these men in Switzerland resulted in the 1599 Geneva Bible. Based on the KJV, it was the first Study Bible with extensive commentary notes in the margins, and was printed in Roman Style Typeface which made it accessible to the relatively uneducated reader. Notable about it is that it challenged the monarchy's self-deification. When this Bible was distributed in England, you could say it raised holy hell with the English clergy.

The Geneva Bible is the Bible Shakespeare quotes in his plays, it was the one the Pilgrims brought with them to America, and our first President Washington commissioned subscriptions for its distribution to the colonists.

Among my collection of Bibles, the 1599 Geneva Bible is special. As study Bibles go, the marginal notes are extraordinary.

C.S. Lewis' book, Mere Christianity, is a must read for all Christians dedicated to understanding the power of the Bible. World renown Christian Apologist, Ravi Zacharias, is a fountain of knowledge.

I think there is far too much advice being given here and not enough encouragement. Trying to jam meaning and methods down someone's throat puts people on the defensive and they immediately build a wall. I have been guilty of this and it seems so has everyone else.

I do have a question for you, K.

If you are referring to this: "I am the way, and the t***h, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me, then please explain what you think Jesus meant.

Canuckus Deploracus Loc: North of the wall

As I have already explained... I am aware of and have read numerous works on Christianity and other faiths...

While bebating I rarely reference them directly... But instead rely upon my own understanding of their reasoning to demonstrate my own understanding...

Providing a link to something that one believes answers a question, but being unable to explain how it answers the question is not referencinf anything...It is deflecting from one's own inability to answer the question..

You are the first to actually ask me how I interpret that verse... And I am happy to answer....

I will PM you if that is acceptable?

Blade_Runner Loc: DARK SIDE OF THE MOON

Absolutely.