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May 14, 2019 02:28:26   #
Blade_Runner Loc: DARK SIDE OF THE MOON
 
Why the Bible?
The Moral Foundation

Reply
May 14, 2019 03:49:54   #
Canuckus Deploracus Loc: North of the wall
 
dtucker300 wrote:
"The better a work is [The Bible, or any religious tome], the more it attracts criticism; it is like the fleas who rush to jump on white linens." - Gustave Flaubert


Well stated...
Although I don't much care for the metaphor

Reply
May 14, 2019 10:27:25   #
JediKnight
 
TommyRadd wrote:
Rose brings a mud-slinger to a sword fight. She has no sword to brandish.

There simply is no commandment to believe that God is a Trinity of three persons in one substance. It is a man-made doctrine that negates the first commandment.

I hope you can see that!


Tommy posted: There simply is no commandment to believe that God is a Trinity of three persons in one substance. It is a man-made doctrine that negates the first commandment.

I hope you can see that!

Jedi responds: Tommy have you read the Great Commission written in Matthew 29:19-20? Jesus tells the disciples to "...go ye therefore and make disciples out of all nations...baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Name of the Son, and the name of the Holy Spirit....."-this indicates that God is made up of three separate but totally cohesive elements. Much like you have a brain to think, a heart that contemplates and a conscious that reflects - and you know those elements are not always in harmony within us....God is the triune spirit comprised of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. Another example is found in John 1:1-2: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning." The "word" spoken of in John is Jesus. The first commandment is not negated (Thou shalt have no other gods before me...) because Jesus and the Holy Spirit combine with the "Father" to exist as what we call God.

Reply
 
 
May 14, 2019 10:35:07   #
Rose42
 
JediKnight wrote:
Tommy posted: There simply is no commandment to believe that God is a Trinity of three persons in one substance. It is a man-made doctrine that negates the first commandment.

I hope you can see that!

Jedi responds: Tommy have you read the Great Commission written in Matthew 29:19-20? Jesus tells the disciples to "...go ye therefore and make disciples out of all nations...baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Name of the Son, and the name of the Holy Spirit....."-this indicates that God is made up of three separate but totally cohesive elements. Much like you have a brain to think, a heart that contemplates and a conscious that reflects - and you know those elements are not always in harmony within us....God is the triune spirit comprised of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. Another example is found in John 1:1-2: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning." The "word" spoken of in John is Jesus. The first commandment is not negated (Thou shalt have no other gods before me...) because Jesus and the Holy Spirit combine with the "Father" to exist as what we call God.
Tommy posted: There simply is no commandment to be... (show quote)


And the baptism of Jesus is another illustration of the triune God -

Matthew 3:13-17 -

13 Then Jesus came from Galilee to the Jordan to John, to be baptized by him. 14 John would have prevented him, saying, “I need to be baptized by you, and do you come to me?” 15 But Jesus answered him, “Let it be so now, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness.” Then he consented. 16 And when Jesus was baptized, immediately he went up from the water, and behold, the heavens were opened to him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and coming to rest on him; 17 and behold, a voice from heaven said, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased.”

Reply
May 14, 2019 10:43:53   #
Zemirah Loc: Sojourner En Route...
 
Speaking of Jesus as a man is true. Speaking of Him as God is also true, for He is fully man and fully God.

What any one individual did or did not grasp at any one time is irrelevant.

The only explanation as to who Jesus is, is found in Holy Scripture, Genesis to Revelation.

I don't care what Pythagoras, Socrates, Plato or Aristotle said for they were all pagan philosophers listening to the sound of their own voice. They knew nothing of the One True God.

After the Biblical Canon of Scripture was closed in 96 A.D. (with the completion of "The Revelation of Jesus Christ to the Apostle John)," I care not on what any individual Jew, Greek or Roman, or any of the so-called seven "church councils" (called together and dictated to by the Roman Emperor) pontificated.

Their devised creeds are but the words of men.

That is all history, but not Scripture. They spoke Not for God.

There are twenty verses with a clause that mentions all three members of the Holy Trinity: God the Father, God the Son (the Lord Jesus Christ), and God the Holy Spirit.

Not one God in three phases. Not three different gods coexisting. One divine being, three offices.

1. Matthew 3:16

“After being baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove and lighting on Him.”

2. Matthew 12:28

“But if I [Jesus] cast out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.”

3. Matthew 28:19

“Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit . . .”

4. Luke 3:22

“And the Holy Spirit descended upon Him [Jesus] in bodily form like a dove, and a voice came out of heaven, “You are My [the Father’s] beloved Son, in You I am well-pleased.”

5. John 14:26

“But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My [Jesus’] name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.”

6. John 15:26

“When the Helper comes, whom I [Jesus] will send to you from the Father, that is the Spirit of t***h who proceeds from the Father, He will testify about Me . . .”

7. Acts 1:4

“Gathering them together, He [Jesus] commanded them not to leave Jerusalem, but to wait for what the Father had promised [the Holy Spirit], “Which,” He said, “you heard of from Me . . .”

8. Acts 2:33

“Therefore having been exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He [Jesus] has poured forth this which you both see and hear.”

9. Acts 10:38

“You know of Jesus of Nazareth, how God anointed Him with the Holy Spirit and with power, and how He went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him.”

10. Romans 1:4

“Who was declared the Son of God with power by the resurrection from the dead, according to the Spirit of holiness, Jesus Christ our Lord . . .”

11. Romans 8:9

“However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.”

12. 1 Corinthians 6:11

Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

13. 2 Corinthians 13:14

The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all.

14. Galatians 4:6

Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, “Abba! Father!”

15. Ephesians 1:17

That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of Him.

16. Ephesians 2:18

For through Him [Jesus] we both have our access in one Spirit to the Father.

17. Ephesians 2:22

In whom [Jesus] you also are being built together into a dwelling of God in the Spirit.

18. Titus 3:6

Whom [the Holy Spirit] He [God] poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior.

19. Hebrews 9:14

How much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

20. 1 Peter 1:2

According to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: may grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.

There are additional passages that encompass all three Trinity members (1st Corinthians 12:4–6; Ephesians 1:13–14; 4:4–6; Jude 20–21), and many more that describe the relationships between the three persons of the Trinity.

Key Passages are:

Matthew 28:19
1st Corinthians 12:4–6
2nd Corinthians 13:14
Ephesians 4:4–6
1st Peter 1:2
1st John 5:7
Jude 20–21


There are passages in the Old Testament mentioning all three members of the Trinity. One is Isaiah 48:16, in which Jesus says, “and now the Lord GOD has sent Me, and His Spirit.”

You can deny that the One God, throughout His Biblical message to mankind, is three personages in perfect unity within One Godhead, in one essence, with one goal, but it will avail you nothing on earth and certainly not in heaven.

You may continue to attempt to turn God's Word on its head.

Why do you kick against the goads?


https://www.onepoliticalplaza.com/t-157872-1.html#2842788
https://overviewbible.com/trinity-bible-verses/
https://topics.logos.com/Trinity



TommyRadd wrote:
Dear Zemirah,


“John Gill (November 23, 1697-October 14, 1771) was an English Baptist, a biblical scholar, and a staunch Calvinist.”

In other words, he was not a first century or earlier Jew, but is interpreting the Bible from his Trinitarian and Calvinistic bias.

Jesus clearly and simply proclaimed:

“You worship that which you don't know. We worship that which we know; for salvation is from the Jews.” John 4:22

Where do any Jews contemporary or before Jesus, who Jesus said knew what they worshipped, believe God was a Trinity?

That is the issue: what Jesus said and whether we will believe him or false teachers who minimize what he said.

Any challenge to this is a “yeah has God said” segway.

The Trinity is a “what” consisting of three “who’s”. The Jews knew “what” they worshipped and ADAMANTLY did NOT believe God was plural in personality.

How is it you don’t see that you have to negate Jesus’ affirmation of the Jewish understanding of monotheism in order to defend a teaching that wasn’t fully defined until the fourth century? (And that by men who boasted they had destroyed the monotheism of Jews (like Jesus) even claiming it to be a heresy!

John Gill noted accurately what “shema” means, which means listen:
“Deut. 6:4, "Hear, O Israel,...." These are the words of Moses, stirring up the people to an attention to what he was about to say...”

But are you aware that the New Testament has its own Shema?

22"Men of Israel, hear these words! Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved by God to you by mighty works and wonders and signs which God did by him in the midst of you, even as you yourselves know, 23him, being delivered up by the determined counsel and foreknowledge of God, you have taken by the hand of lawless men, crucified and k**led; 24whom God raised up, having freed him from the agony of death, because it was not possible that he should be held by it.
25For David says concerning him, 'I saw the Lord always before my face, For he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved.
26Therefore my heart was glad, and my tongue rejoiced. Moreover my flesh also will dwell in hope;
27because you will not leave my soul in Hades, neither will you allow your Holy One to see decay.
28You made known to me the ways of life. You will make me full of gladness with your presence.'
29"Brothers, I may tell you freely of the patriarch David, that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. 30Therefore, being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that of the fruit of his body, according to the flesh, he would raise up the Christ to sit on his throne, 31he foreseeing this spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that neither was his soul left in Hades, nor did his flesh see decay. 32This Jesus God raised up, to which we all are witnesses. 33Being therefore exalted by the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he has poured out this, which you now see and hear.
34For David didn't ascend into the heavens, but he says himself, 'The Lord said to my Lord, "Sit by my right hand,
35until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet."' 36"Let all the house of Israel therefore know certainly that God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified." Acts2:22:36

The New Testament shema/listen, is that Jesus is a MAN approved of God, not an incarnation of God nor a Trinity.

Will you listen to Peter and repent of the same assumption the Jews had, namely that they accused him of a man making himself God, but Peter said he was a man who was anointed and APPROVED by God and MADE lord and Christ!

Will you repent like the Jews did on Pentecost, or gnash on the messenger like they did to Stephen in Acts 7?
Dear Zemirah, br br br “John Gill (November 23, ... (show quote)

Reply
May 14, 2019 10:48:48   #
JediKnight
 
OUTSTANDING and well put together....thank you for sharing the t***h of God...and to God be the glory!

Reply
May 14, 2019 11:00:42   #
Zemirah Loc: Sojourner En Route...
 
Thank you for your kind words, JediKnight,

To God be all glory, indeed!


JediKnight wrote:
OUTSTANDING and well put together....thank you for sharing the t***h of God...and to God be the glory!

Reply
 
 
May 14, 2019 11:11:35   #
Canuckus Deploracus Loc: North of the wall
 
Quote:

Quote:
My point was that Christ used Scripture to refute Satan's knowledge of Scripture... Which no one seems able to do for Tommy's argument... Although I hold high hopes for my friends outside the OPP...


Ok I’ll state it plainly. The reason you so readily believe Tommy is not because he hasn’t been refuted - he has - but because when it comes to scripture you are on very shaky ground. You deny elemental t***hs.


Firstly... No one has yet to refute Tommy's argument... Yes...Several have refuted Tommy.. But not a single person has refuted his argument...

Secondly... There might have been a misunderstanding here... Tommy didn't sway me to believe that God is one.... I have held that belief since I first found faith half a lifetime ago...

Thirdly... Once again.. If scripture states otherwise please show me where... In other words - Please refute Tommy's argument....

Quote:
Quote:
Your ability to judge these individuals (Islam, Mo... (show quote)


God already has decided. He tells us whats true in the word. Gods word is not subject to man’s opinion no matter how much you wish it were. We are able to judge what is sin and what is false teaching. We are supposed to discern. Judge not lest ye be judged doesn’t mean we are not to judge sin amd false teaching.

Christianity is inclusive in that all have a chance to be saved but exclusive in that those who reject Christ won’t be.
Quote: br Your ability to judge these individuals ... (show quote)


You must be able to demonstrate that they are false teachings...
As you cannot you are not qualified to judge (in my opinion)...
Prove me wrong... Show me where Tommy got it wrong... I can assure you that I will admit my ignorance... As I stated earlier, I have shared Tommy's argument with a number of friends... And I sincerely hope some of them will be able to counter it (or parts of it..)...
I am extremely wary of any argument that agrees with my preconceptions... And work hard to make sure that it is sound...

Quote:
Quote:
If they cite Scripture falsely one should confront them and show the falsehood of their claims...
Not tell them they are wrong wrong wrong and then condemn them..
.

When mistakes are pointed out with explicit verses and someone responds ‘thats not my understanding’ again and again and again or with demonstrably false teaching again and again and again they condemn themselves. No one else can do that for them


You have an understanding of some verses.. Mine differs...
Prove that yours are correct...
Telling someone that they lack understanding doesn't strengthen your argument...

Quote:
Quote:
I have no knowledge of "Oneness pentacostals"... I don't see how they enter the argument...
If one argument is wrong another completely different argument is wrong?... Nope


Because you haven’t done any research and don’t know the subject matter. Its the same subject not completely different.


The subject matter is Tommy's argument...
Once again - it wouldn't matter what denomination or faith Tommy belongs to.. Were he the devil himself it wouldn't matter...
If his argument is false then use Scripture to prove it.. As Jesus did...

Quote:
Quote:
Sorry... To me this quote supports Tommy's argument... One God... Men... A mediator..
.

Your comment makes no sense


Your verse appears to show that Jesus is not God... That is how I read it...
If I am wrong then please enlighten me by pointing out how I am wrong... Thank you...

[quote]
Quote:
I may...
As you have condemned them as false teachings it is less likely to interest me... You condemn many things that you are unable to confront... [/quotw]

This is what you fail to grasp. *I* have condemned nothing. God’s word shows them to be false. Not me.


No... I see only you condemning them... For having a different understanding from yours...
Unless you can demonstrate that yours is the one TRUE understanding then you have no right to judge them...

Quote:
I have confronted them. You treat God’s word like a pot luck to pick and choose what you like and disregard what makes you uncomfortable.


I have never disregarded any of God's words... That is a horrid accusation...

Quote:
When confronted with Jesus being the only way - I am the way the t***h and the life no one goes to the Father except through me - you still inexplicably deny that he is the only way and say he is *a* way. You don’t understand that is a denial of Christ. You have all the information you need to either accept or reject him.


This has been addressed... Several times...
Explain to me how a soul that has never heard of Jesus can be saved?
Or do you believe that the soul was sent to Earth to be damned and never stood a chance?
You once sent me a link that did not address this question... I am asking you to explain... Clearly and concisely...
This is an excellent opportunity for you to prove to me that you are a true teacher/student of Christ...

Quote:
When shown the scripture that God’s covenant was with Isaac not Ishmael you still insisted that Ishmael shared in God’s covenant when there is no scripture to support it


I have stated that Ishmael inherented Abraham's covenant with God...
Not Isaac's, Abraham's...
They are two different people and my understanding of Scripture Leads me to believe there were two covenants...
One between Abraham and God concerning Ishmael...
One between Abraham and God concerning Isaac...

I base this on Genesis 17:20, 21:13, 21:17-18, 21:20, 25:9...

Please stop implying that I have stated otherwise... Thank you...

Quote:
Quote:
Please... Show me that you are not a false teacher and refute Tommy's argument... Be sure to use Scripture so that it is biblically sound...


Now I’m a false teacher. I’m not a teacher. But its not about me its about t***h which I’ve seen you reject multiple times. The above examples are just a couple.

The ball is in your court to research. And you’d better be very careful.


I did not accuse you of being a false teacher...
I asked that you teach me....

Quote:
Zemirah has refuted Tommy and there are numerous articles that are slam dunk refutations by those who know the subject inside out. Do some research with a sincere heart. And pray that Satan doesn’t deceive you. Search for modalism, anti trinitarian or unitarian. But you’d better be armed or you will be deceived again.


I was quite excited to see Zemirah's thread concerning the Trinity... But it in no way refuted Tommy's argument...
The few times she intervened on this thread she was rather soundly rebuked..
To refute doesn't mean to find an argument that differs from the original argument... It means that information is presented which proves the original argument was faulty...

I have little interest in researching the various denominations of Christianity... I am a Christianvand share that with all who claim the title... And I share brotherhood with the Jews and Muslims in that we worship the God of Abraham...

I have not been deceived by Tommy... Please stop making that accusation... You are slandering a good and decent man who was most kind in sharing his understanding with us...
I repeat - I held the belief long before I ever had the chance to know Tommy...

Quote:
Quote:
Absolutely... But study guides and public opinion don't ensure we are learning the t***h...


Study guides and commentaries written by bible scholars. Articles written by teachers with their only agenda being promoting God’s word. Not your average Joe’s
opinion.


Which ones?
Those written by catholics? Protestant? Jehovah Witnesses? Mormons? Coptics? Orthodox? Non-denominationals? Jews?

Quote:
Quote:
Do "Islam, Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses, the prosperity gospel, Seventh day adventists, emergent church, word of faith, Catholocism and others " not have study guides and concordances?

They all have study materials. I don’t know if they’re available online.


My point was that all denominations have study guides...

My personal preference for learning is via individuals... I love to discuss faith with all people...

God's teachings are engraved in our hearts and found in every facet of our lives... We simply have to listen and look.nn

Reply
May 14, 2019 11:19:05   #
susanblange Loc: USA
 
bdamage wrote:
What followers of their faith in Christ have is free will.
And Free Will makes us free.


You're twisting "scripture" to fit your own interpretation. I put that in italics because scripture is defined as writing that is holy. The NT is not the word of God, it is the doctrine of Satan. Job 31:35-36. 'Oh that one would hear me! behold, my desire is, that the Almighty would answer me, and that mine adversary had written a book. Surely I would take it upon my shoulder, and bind it as a crown to me". Satan means "adversary". Revelation 2:24. "...as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan..."

Reply
May 14, 2019 11:30:22   #
JediKnight
 
Zemirah wrote:
Thank you for your kind words, JediKnight,

To God be all glory, indeed!


"You will know them as mine by the love they have for one another....just as a fig tree does not bear apples, nor an apple tree bears figs -you will know them by their fruits." - Jesus Christ

Reply
May 14, 2019 12:14:40   #
Blade_Runner Loc: DARK SIDE OF THE MOON
 
Canuckus Deploracus wrote:
Firstly... No one has yet to refute Tommy's argument... Yes...Several have refuted Tommy.. But not a single person has refuted his argument...

Secondly... There might have been a misunderstanding here... Tommy didn't sway me to believe that God is one.... I have held that belief since I first found faith half a lifetime ago...
Has Tommy refuted the Biblical proof of a Triune God, or has he merely supported your own belief?

How do you refute a person, but not his argument?

Reply
 
 
May 14, 2019 14:54:22   #
JediKnight
 
Blade_Runner wrote:
Has Tommy refuted the Biblical proof of a Triune God, or has he merely supported your own belief?

How do you refute a person, but not his argument?


Because the person may be totally flawed in character and actions, while their argument remains valid. Many people who refute "socialism" still agree that many so-called "socialist" practices are okay...such as paying taxes.

Reply
May 14, 2019 15:32:45   #
Zemirah Loc: Sojourner En Route...
 
Canuckus,

You are mistaken. I have not been rebuked, seriously or otherwise. You seem to be operating in a delusional dream state.

Superficiality, rudeness, arrogance, ignorance and a round robin of circular words does not constitute a "rebuke."

Neither did I "intervene on this thread" as you claim. My right to post on this thread is no less valid than your own.

You've been in Kansas too long.

You lack any understanding of the most basic of Christian tenets.

Unless you've read and studied it, God's Word is not "engraved upon your heart," nor will your "love of discussing faith with all people" teach you to know God.

To find God, you have to seek Him with your whole heart, for it is not He who is lost.

God's "teachings" are to be found in the Bible, and require concentration and study.



Canuckus Deploracus wrote:
My point was that all denominations have study guides...

My personal preference for learning is via individuals... I love to discuss faith with all people...

God's teachings are engraved in our hearts and found in every facet of our lives... We simply have to listen and look.nn

Reply
May 14, 2019 16:24:28   #
JediKnight
 
Zemirah wrote:
Canuckus,

You are mistaken. I have not been rebuked, seriously or otherwise. You seem to be operating in a delusional dream state.

Superficiality, rudeness, arrogance, ignorance and a round robin of circular words does not constitute a "rebuke."

Neither did I "intervene on this thread" as you claim. My right to post on this thread is no less valid than your own.

You've been in Kansas too long.

You lack any understanding of the most basic of Christian tenets.

Unless you've read and studied it, God's Word is not "engraved upon your heart," nor will your "love of discussing faith with all people" teach you to know God.

To find God, you have to seek Him with your whole heart, for it is not He who is lost.

God's "teachings" are to be found in the Bible, and require concentration and study.
Canuckus, br br You are mistaken. I have not been... (show quote)


Zemirah: keep speaking t***h....even though you may be insulted and mocked on this site -you know that Jesus was insulted, mocked, and persecuted as well. Many just don't get it -many don't want to get it. Jeremiah 29:13 - "You will find me when you seek me with your whole heart." - God

Reply
May 14, 2019 17:00:29   #
Rose42
 
Quote:
Firstly... No one has yet to refute Tommy's argument... Yes...Several have refuted Tommy.. But not a single person has refuted his argument...


Yes they have refuted his argument. Read and search with an open heart. Seek out teachers.

Quote:
You must be able to demonstrate that they are false teachings...
As you cannot you are not qualified to judge (in my opinion)...
Prove me wrong... Show me where Tommy got it wrong... I can assure you that I will admit my ignorance... As I stated earlier, I have shared Tommy's argument with a number of friends... And I sincerely hope some of them will be able to counter it (or parts of it..)...
I am extremely wary of any argument that agrees with my preconceptions... And work hard to make sure that it is sound...
You must be able to demonstrate that they are fals... (show quote)


Its been shown why Tommy is wrong. And you can do a search and find out more if you wish.

Quote:
You have an understanding of some verses.. Mine differs...

Prove that yours are correct...
Telling someone that they lack understanding doesn't strengthen your argument...


Again, it is not *my* understanding. I have provided various scriptures. You deny them because you 'feel' they are wrong. The bible isn't to be conformed to our understanding, we conform ours to the bible.

Quote:
The subject matter is Tommy's argument...
Once again - it wouldn't matter what denomination or faith Tommy belongs to.. Were he the devil himself it wouldn't matter...
If his argument is false then use Scripture to prove it.. As Jesus did...


Do some reading on the subject. If you did you would understand better where he's coming from and how that ideology started and why its false. And you will find scripture that negates his argument.

Quote:

Your verse appears to show that Jesus is not God... That is how I read it...
If I am wrong then please enlighten me by pointing out how I am wrong... Thank you...


Think about it. Why would a verse in the bible suggest Jesus is not God. The verse given was to show that if God and Christ were different manifestations rather than part of the trinity it would make no sense to have God mediate for himself. Just as when Christ was baptized the Father, Son and Holy Spirit were all there at the same time - not in different manifestations.

Quote:
No... I see only you condemning them... For having a different understanding from yours...
Unless you can demonstrate that yours is the one TRUE understanding then you have no right to judge them...


I condemn no one. Any Christian should absolutely point out what is false doctrine. You need to do some serious study with some teachers who are solid Christians.

Quote:
I have never disregarded any of God's words... That is a horrid accusation...


It gives me no pleasure to say it. Just the opposite. Here's just one example. "I am the way, the t***h and the life". Not "a" way, "a" t***h, or "a" life.

Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the t***h, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. John 14:6

There's really no way to misinterpret the meaning in light of other things he tells us. Its fundamental to salvation.

Am I remembering wrong or did you say we don't need to be saved? If that is what you said then that is a very grave error. I hope I'm remembering that wrong.

Quote:

Explain to me how a soul that has never heard of Jesus can be saved?
Or do you believe that the soul was sent to Earth to be damned and never stood a chance?
You once sent me a link that did not address this question... I am asking you to explain... Clearly and concisely...


This has been addressed - several times. If the reason why doesn't jump right out at you you can't simply put it aside. You have to keep reading and referencing and pray that the Holy Spirit will guide you to understanding.

Its a simple thing to search to find the answer. R.C. Sproul, John MacArthur and Ravi Zacharias among others are excellent pastors and teachers. Ravi Zacharias has a background in philosophy and R.C. Sproul and John MacArthur are highly respected bible scholars. R.C. Sproul has passed away but writings are still available.

YOU have heard of Jesus. YOU have all the information you need to accept or reject him.

Quote:
This is an excellent opportunity for you to prove to me that you are a true teacher/student of Christ..


I already said I wasn't a teacher. For you to recognize what being a disciple of Christ is you first have to understand what that means. It doesn't mean just be nice to everyone though that is certainly some fruit of it.

Matt 10:34-39
"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to turn ‘a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law—a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’ Anyone who loves their father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves their son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. Whoever does not take up their cross and follow me is not worthy of me. Whoever finds their life will lose it, and whoever loses their life for my sake will find it."

Many Christians have lost family and friends because of their beliefs.

Do you know what taking up your cross means? Its something you should look into. If Christ isn't Lord over all aspects of your life - and you said before he wasn't - then you have a problem. But the free gift of salvation is always there for us to take. For us all.

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I have stated that Ishmael inherented Abraham's covenant with God...
Not Isaac's, Abraham's...
They are two different people and my understanding of Scripture Leads me to believe there were two covenants...
One between Abraham and God concerning Ishmael...
One between Abraham and God concerning Isaac...

I base this on Genesis 17:20, 21:13, 21:17-18, 21:20, 25:9...

Please stop implying that I have stated otherwise... Thank you...


I know what you said. And you are not correct. Nowhere does it say there was any type of covenant with Ishmael. If there were two covenants that would have been explicit. God blessed Ishmael but Ishmael never shared in the covenant. And if you read your verses you see no mention of any covenant with Ishmael. Ishmael was born out of their distrust of God's promise to Sarah to give Abraham a son in her old age. Ishmael's descendants would be a great people but not the covenant people.

Read all of Genesis 17 to see what that covenant with Abraham is.

Genesis 17 -
15 And God said to Abraham, “As for Sarai your wife, you shall not call her name Sarai, but Sarah[d] shall be her name. 16 I will bless her, and moreover, I will give[e] you a son by her. I will bless her, and she shall become nations; kings of peoples shall come from her.” 17 Then Abraham fell on his face and laughed and said to himself, “Shall a child be born to a man who is a hundred years old? Shall Sarah, who is ninety years old, bear a child?” 18 And Abraham said to God, “Oh that Ishmael might live before you!” 19 God said, “No, but Sarah your wife shall bear you a son, and you shall call his name Isaac.[f] I will establish my covenant with him as an everlasting covenant for his offspring after him. 20 As for Ishmael, I have heard you; behold, I have blessed him and will make him fruitful and multiply him greatly. He shall father twelve princes, and I will make him into a great nation. 21 But I will establish my covenant with Isaac, whom Sarah shall bear to you at this time next year.”

There is more to it but you'd have to read more of Genesis and not cherry pick a verse here and there to fit the narrative you want.

Galatians 4 - also shows Ishmael isn't part of God's covenant to Abraham.

28 Now you, brothers, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29 But just as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so also it is now. 30 But what does the Scripture say? “Cast out the s***e woman and her son, for the son of the s***e woman shall not inherit with the son of the free woman.” 31 So, brothers, we are not children of the s***e but of the free woman.


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I was quite excited to see Zemirah's thread concerning the Trinity... But it in no way refuted Tommy's argument...
The few times she intervened on this thread she was rather soundly rebuked..
To refute doesn't mean to find an argument that differs from the original argument... It means that information is presented which proves the original argument was faulty...


Maybe rebuked (wrongly) but she was not corrected. There is a huge difference.

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I have little interest in researching the various denominations of Christianity... I am a Christianvand share that with all who claim the title... And I share brotherhood with the Jews and Muslims in that we worship the God of Abraham...


Claiming one is a Christian doesn't make it so. Many claim it but they are on the wide road not the narrow. Your insistence that islam is a path to the real God of Abraham indicates your faith is very tenuous. But its never too late to receive the free gift of salvation God offers to us through Christ. The beauty of it is its free, we come as we are, and its available to ALL if we repent and believe. EVERYONE.

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I have not been deceived by Tommy... Please stop making that accusation... You are slandering a good and decent man who was most kind in sharing his understanding with us...
I repeat - I held the belief long before I ever had the chance to know Tommy...


All you know about him is he happens to post things you agree with. If you don't believe there is a Triune God along with other aspects of Christ you reject, then you are in deep trouble my friend.

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My personal preference for learning is via individuals... I love to discuss faith with all people...

God's teachings are engraved in our hearts and found in every facet of our lives... We simply have to listen and look.nn


God's teachings are in the bible which you won't learn unless you read it. You won't learn them by speaking to people who aren't Christians or those who are just starting their walk. You need teachers. We all need teachers.

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