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Apr 15, 2019 02:37:32   #
JW (a regular here)
 
I was born Catholic, raised Baptist and grew up devoutly religious; saved, born again, and a frequent leader of the Sunday evening service at our church. Today, I am agnostic.

Former church-mates of mine are quite certain that I could not have been sincere if I am truly agnostic today. I have assured them, and now you, that I was as sincere then as I am now and I am as sincere as I can possibly be.

There may be a God, I don’t know, but the characterizations of God currently celebrated on planet Earth are pure fiction in my view.

Why do I say such a thing? Firstly, if God can truly do anything, why would He design a universe that cannibalizes itself at every level. Why would any omnipotent being create a system in which His greatest creations can only exist by destroying His other creations? The sadism in that design says nothing positive about a universal creator.

Secondly, if God is truly omniscient, knows all, past, present, future, He would have known from the very beginning of the pain and terror felt by every prey species and every mistreated child throughout the history of His Creations. Once again, the sadism in that behavior says nothing positive about such a universal creator.

Thirdly, if God really is omnipresent as advertised, He is an ever-present witness to all of the pain and agony, torture and death, loss and grief that He has designed into His creations. Finally, the sadism in that voyeuristic proposition says nothing positive about such a universal creator.

I do not object to anyone’s personal beliefs so long as they remain personal. I do not discourage any from their beliefs. I don’t know if it is possible to exist as a society without some omnipotent father figure somewhere in the mix. The current devaluation of the strong father archetype is having some very unfortunate and profound impacts on our ability to maintain and operate a civilized society. That is another of what I view as failures in the design.

It is not my goal here to attack or promote any belief. It is my intention to present an argument for open-mindedness. I know that is a difficult standard to maintain. It requires a constant review of one’s own feelings and information bases. It is not always a matter of conviction that leads us to separate conclusions. Sometimes it is merely a difference in point of view, or of information possessed, or of transient uncertainties.

| Reply
Apr 15, 2019 03:53:24   #
Canuckus Deploracus (a regular here)
 
JW wrote:
I was born Catholic, raised Baptist and grew up devoutly religious; saved, born again, and a frequent leader of the Sunday evening service at our church. Today, I am agnostic.

Former church-mates of mine are quite certain that I could not have been sincere if I am truly agnostic today. I have assured them, and now you, that I was as sincere then as I am now and I am as sincere as I can possibly be.

There may be a God, I don’t know, but the characterizations of God currently celebrated on planet Earth are pure fiction in my view.

Why do I say such a thing? Firstly, if God can truly do anything, why would He design a universe that cannibalizes itself at every level. Why would any omnipotent being create a system in which His greatest creations can only exist by destroying His other creations? The sadism in that design says nothing positive about a universal creator.

Secondly, if God is truly omniscient, knows all, past, present, future, He would have known from the very beginning of the pain and terror felt by every prey species and every mistreated child throughout the history of His Creations. Once again, the sadism in that behavior says nothing positive about such a universal creator.

Thirdly, if God really is omnipresent as advertised, He is an ever-present witness to all of the pain and agony, torture and death, loss and grief that He has designed into His creations. Finally, the sadism in that voyeuristic proposition says nothing positive about such a universal creator.

I do not object to anyone’s personal beliefs so long as they remain personal. I do not discourage any from their beliefs. I don’t know if it is possible to exist as a society without some omnipotent father figure somewhere in the mix. The current devaluation of the strong father archetype is having some very unfortunate and profound impacts on our ability to maintain and operate a civilized society. That is another of what I view as failures in the design.

It is not my goal here to attack or promote any belief. It is my intention to present an argument for open-mindedness. I know that is a difficult standard to maintain. It requires a constant review of one’s own feelings and information bases. It is not always a matter of conviction that leads us to separate conclusions. Sometimes it is merely a difference in point of view, or of information possessed, or of transient uncertainties.
I was born Catholic, raised Baptist and grew up de... (show quote)


An excellent post...
And many fine points...
I am at work...
But will return to this thread this evening...


| Reply
Apr 15, 2019 04:25:44   #
Blade_Runner (a regular here)
 
JW wrote:
I was born Catholic, raised Baptist and grew up devoutly religious; saved, born again, and a frequent leader of the Sunday evening service at our church. Today, I am agnostic.

Former church-mates of mine are quite certain that I could not have been sincere if I am truly agnostic today. I have assured them, and now you, that I was as sincere then as I am now and I am as sincere as I can possibly be.

There may be a God, I don’t know, but the characterizations of God currently celebrated on planet Earth are pure fiction in my view.

Why do I say such a thing? Firstly, if God can truly do anything, why would He design a universe that cannibalizes itself at every level. Why would any omnipotent being create a system in which His greatest creations can only exist by destroying His other creations? The sadism in that design says nothing positive about a universal creator.

Secondly, if God is truly omniscient, knows all, past, present, future, He would have known from the very beginning of the pain and terror felt by every prey species and every mistreated child throughout the history of His Creations. Once again, the sadism in that behavior says nothing positive about such a universal creator.

Thirdly, if God really is omnipresent as advertised, He is an ever-present witness to all of the pain and agony, torture and death, loss and grief that He has designed into His creations. Finally, the sadism in that voyeuristic proposition says nothing positive about such a universal creator.

I do not object to anyone’s personal beliefs so long as they remain personal. I do not discourage any from their beliefs. I don’t know if it is possible to exist as a society without some omnipotent father figure somewhere in the mix. The current devaluation of the strong father archetype is having some very unfortunate and profound impacts on our ability to maintain and operate a civilized society. That is another of what I view as failures in the design.

It is not my goal here to attack or promote any belief. It is my intention to present an argument for open-mindedness. I know that is a difficult standard to maintain. It requires a constant review of one’s own feelings and information bases. It is not always a matter of conviction that leads us to separate conclusions. Sometimes it is merely a difference in point of view, or of information possessed, or of transient uncertainties.
I was born Catholic, raised Baptist and grew up de... (show quote)
Oh, oh, I smell the stink of apostasy. Old Lucifer works diligently to snag the faithful, cast doubt into their hearts, throw clouds of uncertainty into their thoughts, force them to question their faith. Once that happens, the doubts and uncertainties feed on themselves, they grow stronger as time passes and soon another child of God turns away from Him. The Prince of Darkness is mightily pleased when one of them passes judgement on God.

| Reply
Apr 15, 2019 04:44:12   #
Zemirah (a regular here)
 
The position you espouse is not enviable, JW, nor is it realistic.

May I assume you are writing on your modern technological wonder known as a computer in relative comfort in a location of your choice?

May I also assume you are at least moderately well clothed and well fed?

As you do not reference the Bible, nor do you quote one Scripture, may I inquire as to your frame of reference at either the Catholic or Baptist church... Surely, you did not learn about the God you reject solely by word of mouth or your own subjective, i.e., personal experience?

Personally, I find the refrain of "It's all God's fault." to be a cop-out, as you assume no responsibility whatsoever for your inability to find any beauty, joy or satisfaction in anything under the sun.

In this still free country, where you are able to find a Bible in almost any bookstore, or one free at the Salvation Army, if at sometime during your tedious existence, you had availed yourself of the Word of God, and read the book, beginning with Genesis, you might be better positioned to condemn God wholesale, for "His Creation, His initial plan for humanity, man's rebellion. God's subsequent plan for our redemption, His prophetic unveiling of the conditions we may expect in the future, and what the final outcome will be have all been made clear.

God has spelled it all out, with few surprises. He has also given us options. We were not created to be puppets. We have choices to make in life, of which some will be beneficial to us, others not so much.

I see that it is only the rest of mankind who are to keep their "personal belief's private," while you exercise your freedom to post yours here on the internet where, theoretically, the entire world can view them.

This "standard of open-mindedness" you believe you are displaying and which you demand of the rest of us requires further clarification

It is precisely a matter of personal conviction that leads to any degree of belief, i.e. reaching
a conclusion in any matter.

The "mere difference in point of view, or of information possessed, or of transient uncertainties" you list as
alternatives to conviction in reaching conclusions are variables dealt with every day in every individual's life.

Our point of view on a matter, for instance, our world view, adjusts to any input of new information, and is temporarily suspended only until we acquire answers that resolve our "transient uncertainties."

As the only reality you name in your past life is Christianity, you might examine the fact that there are millions of Christians in the United States, and it is possible their members possess an understanding you have lost, as their loyalty would presumably be short lived were they not being mentally, emotionally and/or spiritually rewarded.

My own profound faith in the Triune Creator God of Israel, God the Father, God the Son - Jesus Christ, and God, the Holy Spirit has never been shaken, for throughout a lifetime that has never been easy, God has never forsaken me.

"Now without faith it is impossible to please God, since the one who draws near to Him must believe that He exists and that He rewards those who seek Him." (Hebrews 11:6)

This does not mean God will allow you to win the Lottery, or provide you a chauffeured Limousine, but
he will listen. He is God. We are not. God is not running a democracy.

"Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:
But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it."(Isaiah 1:18-20)

Being sincere availeth a man little, if sincerely wrong.

You can continue to rail against God, or you can make your peace with Him though Jesus Christ, our advocate with God the Father.



JW wrote:
I was born Catholic, raised Baptist and grew up devoutly religious; saved, born again, and a frequent leader of the Sunday evening service at our church. Today, I am agnostic.

Former church-mates of mine are quite certain that I could not have been sincere if I am truly agnostic today. I have assured them, and now you, that I was as sincere then as I am now and I am as sincere as I can possibly be.

There may be a God, I don’t know, but the characterizations of God currently celebrated on planet Earth are pure fiction in my view.

Why do I say such a thing? Firstly, if God can truly do anything, why would He design a universe that cannibalizes itself at every level. Why would any omnipotent being create a system in which His greatest creations can only exist by destroying His other creations? The sadism in that design says nothing positive about a universal creator.

Secondly, if God is truly omniscient, knows all, past, present, future, He would have known from the very beginning of the pain and terror felt by every prey species and every mistreated child throughout the history of His Creations. Once again, the sadism in that behavior says nothing positive about such a universal creator.

Thirdly, if God really is omnipresent as advertised, He is an ever-present witness to all of the pain and agony, torture and death, loss and grief that He has designed into His creations. Finally, the sadism in that voyeuristic proposition says nothing positive about such a universal creator.

I do not object to anyone’s personal beliefs so long as they remain personal. I do not discourage any from their beliefs. I don’t know if it is possible to exist as a society without some omnipotent father figure somewhere in the mix. The current devaluation of the strong father archetype is having some very unfortunate and profound impacts on our ability to maintain and operate a civilized society. That is another of what I view as failures in the design.

It is not my goal here to attack or promote any belief. It is my intention to present an argument for open-mindedness. I know that is a difficult standard to maintain. It requires a constant review of one’s own feelings and information bases. It is not always a matter of conviction that leads us to separate conclusions. Sometimes it is merely a difference in point of view, or of information possessed, or of transient uncertainties.
I was born Catholic, raised Baptist and grew up de... (show quote)

| Reply
Apr 15, 2019 04:51:16   #
Blade_Runner (a regular here)
 
Zemirah wrote:
The position you espouse is not enviable, JW, nor is it realistic.

May I assume you are writing on your modern technological wonder known as a computer in relative comfort in a location of your choice?

May I also assume you are at least moderately well clothed and well fed?

As you do not reference the Bible, nor do you quote one Scripture, may I inquire as to your frame of reference at either the Catholic or Baptist church... Surely, you did not learn about the God you reject solely by word of mouth or your own subjective, i.e., personal experience?

Personally, I find the refrain of "It's all God's fault." to be a cop-out, as you assume no responsibility whatsoever for your inability to find any beauty, joy or satisfaction in anything under the sun.

In this still free country, where you are able to find a Bible in almost any bookstore, or one free at the Salvation Army, if at sometime during your tedious existence, you had availed yourself of the Word of God, and read the book, beginning with Genesis, you might be better positioned to condemn God wholesale, for "His Creation, His initial plan for humanity, man's rebellion. God's subsequent plan for our redemption, His prophetic unveiling of the conditions we may expect in the future, and what the final outcome will be have all been made clear.

God has spelled it all out, with few surprises. He has also given us options. We were not created to be puppets. We have choices to make in life, of which some will be beneficial to us, others not so much.

I see that it is only the rest of mankind who are to keep their "personal belief's private," while you exercise your freedom to post yours here on the internet where, theoretically, the entire world can view them.

This "standard of open-mindedness" you believe you are displaying and which you demand of the rest of us requires further clarification

It is precisely a matter of personal conviction that leads to any degree of belief, i.e. reaching
a conclusion in any matter.

The "mere difference in point of view, or of information possessed, or of transient uncertainties" you list as
alternatives to conviction in reaching conclusions are variables dealt with every day in every individual's life.

Our point of view on a matter, for instance, our world view, adjusts to any input of new information, and is temporarily suspended only until we acquire answers that resolve our "transient uncertainties."

As the only reality you name in your past life is Christianity, you might examine the fact that there are millions of Christians in the United States, and it is possible their members possess an understanding you have lost, as their loyalty would presumably be short lived were they not being mentally, emotionally and/or spiritually rewarded.

My own profound faith in the Triune Creator God of Israel, God the Father, God the Son - Jesus Christ, and God, the Holy Spirit has never been shaken, for throughout a lifetime that has never been easy, God has never forsaken me.

"Now without faith it is impossible to please God, since the one who draws near to Him must believe that He exists and that He rewards those who seek Him." (Hebrews 11:6)

This does not mean God will allow you to win the Lottery, or provide you a chauffeured Limousine, but
he will listen. He is God. We are not. God is not running a democracy.

"Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:
But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it."(Isaiah 1:18-20)

Being sincere availeth a man little, if sincerely wrong.

You can continue to rail against God, or you can make your peace with Him though Jesus Christ, our advocate with God the Father.
The position you espouse is not enviable, JW, nor ... (show quote)



| Reply
Apr 15, 2019 04:55:53   #
JW (a regular here)
 
Blade_Runner wrote:
Oh, oh, I smell the stink of apostasy. Old Lucifer works diligently to snag the faithful, cast doubt into their hearts, throw clouds of uncertainty into their thoughts, force them to question their faith. Once that happens, the doubts and uncertainties feed on themselves, they grow stronger as time passes and soon another child of God turns away from Him. The Prince of Darkness is mightily pleased when one of them passes judgement on God.


You misunderstand. I am not judging God. Who would I have to be to imagine I am qualified for that roll. I don't begin to presume such status.

No, I am, if God exists, using his intellectual gifts to me to understand what is clearly a gross contradiction to the idea of a loving God. If i am remiss in doing so, I welcome His immediate correction or we can discuss it at the judgment. I am OK with either option.

Lest you presume unwarranted arrogance on my part, I assure you it is not intended. If God is a loving God, and his gift to me is the root of my error, surely He understands my quandary.

| Reply
Apr 15, 2019 05:07:01   #
JW (a regular here)
 
Zemirah wrote:
The position you espouse is not enviable, JW, nor is it realistic.

May I assume you are writing on your modern technological wonder known as a computer in relative comfort in a location of your choice?

May I also assume you are at least moderately well clothed and well fed?

As you do not reference the Bible, nor do you quote one Scripture, may I inquire as to your frame of reference at either the Catholic or Baptist church... Surely, you did not learn about the God you reject solely by word of mouth or your own subjective, i.e., personal experience?

Personally, I find the refrain of "It's all God's fault." to be a cop-out, as you assume no responsibility whatsoever for your inability to find any beauty, joy or satisfaction in anything under the sun.

In this still free country, where you are able to find a Bible in almost any bookstore, or one free at the Salvation Army, if at sometime during your tedious existence, you had availed yourself of the Word of God, and read the book, beginning with Genesis, you might be better positioned to condemn God wholesale, for "His Creation, His initial plan for humanity, man's rebellion. God's subsequent plan for our redemption, His prophetic unveiling of the conditions we may expect in the future, and what the final outcome will be have all been made clear.

God has spelled it all out, with few surprises. He has also given us options. We were not created to be puppets. We have choices to make in life, of which some will be beneficial to us, others not so much.

I see that it is only the rest of mankind who are to keep their "personal belief's private," while you exercise your freedom to post yours here on the internet where, theoretically, the entire world can view them.

This "standard of open-mindedness" you believe you are displaying and which you demand of the rest of us requires further clarification

It is precisely a matter of personal conviction that leads to any degree of belief, i.e. reaching
a conclusion in any matter.

The "mere difference in point of view, or of information possessed, or of transient uncertainties" you list as
alternatives to conviction in reaching conclusions are variables dealt with every day in every individual's life.

Our point of view on a matter, for instance, our world view, adjusts to any input of new information, and is temporarily suspended only until we acquire answers that resolve our "transient uncertainties."

As the only reality you name in your past life is Christianity, you might examine the fact that there are millions of Christians in the United States, and it is possible their members possess an understanding you have lost, as their loyalty would presumably be short lived were they not being mentally, emotionally and/or spiritually rewarded.

My own profound faith in the Triune Creator God of Israel, God the Father, God the Son - Jesus Christ, and God, the Holy Spirit has never been shaken, for throughout a lifetime that has never been easy, God has never forsaken me.

"Now without faith it is impossible to please God, since the one who draws near to Him must believe that He exists and that He rewards those who seek Him." (Hebrews 11:6)

This does not mean God will allow you to win the Lottery, or provide you a chauffeured Limousine, but
he will listen. He is God. We are not. God is not running a democracy.

"Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:
But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it."(Isaiah 1:18-20)

Being sincere availeth a man little, if sincerely wrong.

You can continue to rail against God, or you can make your peace with Him though Jesus Christ, our advocate with God the Father.
The position you espouse is not enviable, JW, nor ... (show quote)


I agree that my position is not enviable but it is as real as I am.

I blame God for nothing. My life is and has been my own. To the extent I am able, I recognize the world and my interactions with it.

I make no judgment nor cast any aspersions on God. I simply question His existence in view of the contradictions I perceive. I do not question your faith nor your sincerity nor your commitment to your beliefs. I would consider it a favor if you did not project your animosity toward my viewpoint onto me and offer me the same respect I have offered you.

(It is necessary that I return to your response before writing further. I can explain why if you question that.)

I do not reference the Bible because that is not the topic of this posting nor is it my desire to go there specifically. This posting is about the generally described characteristics of a Supreme being and the contradictions those abilities raise in my view of how a creator would seem to regard his creations.

As for seeing the beauty of God's creation, I most assuredly do enjoy and appreciate it. That is the primary reason for my questioning His existence. Why would one who can create such marvels set them in a system specifically designed to destroy them? Why would the universal artist create creatures able to see and appreciate such beauty only to take it all away from them? Why would God create a beautiful kitten for nothing more than a rat's meal? Please don't insult my intelligence, or your own, by suggesting rats need to eat as well. A caring creator could easily have made both vegetarian.

(I'll be back.)

Keeping it personal only meant not attempting to impose it on others. By all means, preach, persuade, convince if you can. How else can we begin to understand our fellows? My statement was keep them personal, not private!

(Once more...)

You are correct in that conviction is the final step to conclusion... it is also the greatest impediment to enquiry. The other points I raised refer to learning, not concluding.

(...hopefully for the last time.)

As for winning the lottery, I've done much better than that. I am alive only because of a device implanted in my chest that spurs my heart to beat. If there is a God, I owe Him a great deal. I died 22 years ago. That gift is far beyond my capacity to repay for value gained.

My enquiry is not to dissuade anyone from their convictions. It is my attempt to find a solid footing for my grasp of reality. I realized how it might appear to any who might be weak in their belief and did ask them not to enter here.

| Reply
Apr 15, 2019 05:32:53   #
Blade_Runner (a regular here)
 
JW wrote:
You misunderstand. I am not judging God. Who would I have to be to imagine I am qualified for that roll. I don't begin to presume such status.

No, I am, if God exists, using his intellectual gifts to me to understand what is clearly a gross contradiction to the idea of a loving God. If i am remiss in doing so, I welcome His immediate correction or we can discuss it at the judgment. I am OK with either option.

Lest you presume unwarranted arrogance on my part, I assure you it is not intended. If God is a loving God, and his gift to me is the root of my error, surely He understands my quandary.
You misunderstand. I am not judging God. Who would... (show quote)
"characterizations of God currently celebrated on planet Earth are pure fiction in my view."
Why are you so concerned over how atheists characterize God. The godless always fictionalize Him. Almighty God is not defined by man.

"if God can truly do anything, why would He design a universe that cannibalizes itself at every level. Why would any omnipotent being create a system in which His greatest creations can only exist by destroying His other creations? The sadism in that design says nothing positive about a universal creator."
Here you are accusing God of failure, you are passing judgement on His creation. The cycles of birth and death, of creation and destruction, are seen throughout our universe, from the smallest microbe to the greatest galaxy.

When you ask, "if God is truly omniscient, if God really is omnipresent as advertised" you are questioning His infinite power and grace.

We imperfect humans are forever being tested, God made it so to determine who is worthy of Him. He never said it would be easy.

Read 2 Timothy 3, then Ephesians 6.

| Reply
Apr 15, 2019 06:10:54   #
JW (a regular here)
 
Blade_Runner wrote:
"characterizations of God currently celebrated on planet Earth are pure fiction in my view."
Why are you so concerned over how atheists characterize God. The godless always fictionalize Him. Almighty God is not defined by man.

"if God can truly do anything, why would He design a universe that cannibalizes itself at every level. Why would any omnipotent being create a system in which His greatest creations can only exist by destroying His other creations? The sadism in that design says nothing positive about a universal creator."
Here you are accusing God of failure, you are passing judgement on His creation. The cycles of birth and death, of creation and destruction, are seen throughout our universe, from the smallest microbe to the greatest galaxy.

When you ask, "if God is truly omniscient, if God really is omnipresent as advertised" you are questioning His infinite power and grace.

We imperfect humans are forever being tested, God made it so to determine who is worthy of Him. He never said it would be easy.

Read 2 Timothy 3, then Ephesians 6.
i "characterizations of God currently celebr... (show quote)



My concern is not how any specific group characterizes God. It is for how all groups characterize God.

I am not passing judgment on God. How can I pass judgment on someone whose very existence I question. I am noting what I see as a contradiction between the advertisement and the product.

I am indeed questioning if such a power exists but any such power, not directed in any particular direction.

| Reply
Apr 15, 2019 06:16:27   #
Richard Rowland (a regular here)
 
JW wrote:
I agree that my position is not enviable but it is as real as I am.

I blame God for nothing. My life is and has been my own. To the extent I am able, I recognize the world and my interactions with it.

I make no judgment nor cast any aspersions on God. I simply question His existence in view of the contradictions I perceive. I do not question your faith nor your sincerity nor your commitment to your beliefs. I would consider it a favor if you did not project your animosity toward my viewpoint onto me and offer me the same respect I have offered you.

(It is necessary that I return to your response before writing further. I can explain why if you question that.)
I agree that my position is not enviable but it is... (show quote)


I think, JW, if honest, most of us struggle with the same issues. However, there are those who go thru life rarely thinking one-way-or-another about the prospect of if there is a God or not. It is only logical that given a brain, we who have delved a bit into the official word of God would question it.

I read recently that a mountain lion had attacked a young child, the mother heard her child's screams, rushed to rescue the child, jumping on the lion and asking God's help. The lion did release the child and ran off.

There is no doubt the outcome of what could have been much worse, has reinforced this mother's belief in God. Still, the question could be, why did God allow that to happen in the first place?

Personally, I believe in a higher power. Not so much, though, in God, man has created. I have experienced what I believe to be the work of a higher power, however, some would say mere coincidence. To each his own!

| Reply
Apr 15, 2019 06:20:00   #
badbob85037 (a regular here)
 
JW wrote:
I was born Catholic, raised Baptist and grew up devoutly religious; saved, born again, and a frequent leader of the Sunday evening service at our church. Today, I am agnostic.

Former church-mates of mine are quite certain that I could not have been sincere if I am truly agnostic today. I have assured them, and now you, that I was as sincere then as I am now and I am as sincere as I can possibly be.

There may be a God, I don’t know, but the characterizations of God currently celebrated on planet Earth are pure fiction in my view.

Why do I say such a thing? Firstly, if God can truly do anything, why would He design a universe that cannibalizes itself at every level. Why would any omnipotent being create a system in which His greatest creations can only exist by destroying His other creations? The sadism in that design says nothing positive about a universal creator.

Secondly, if God is truly omniscient, knows all, past, present, future, He would have known from the very beginning of the pain and terror felt by every prey species and every mistreated child throughout the history of His Creations. Once again, the sadism in that behavior says nothing positive about such a universal creator.

Thirdly, if God really is omnipresent as advertised, He is an ever-present witness to all of the pain and agony, torture and death, loss and grief that He has designed into His creations. Finally, the sadism in that voyeuristic proposition says nothing positive about such a universal creator.

I do not object to anyone’s personal beliefs so long as they remain personal. I do not discourage any from their beliefs. I don’t know if it is possible to exist as a society without some omnipotent father figure somewhere in the mix. The current devaluation of the strong father archetype is having some very unfortunate and profound impacts on our ability to maintain and operate a civilized society. That is another of what I view as failures in the design.

It is not my goal here to attack or promote any belief. It is my intention to present an argument for open-mindedness. I know that is a difficult standard to maintain. It requires a constant review of one’s own feelings and information bases. It is not always a matter of conviction that leads us to separate conclusions. Sometimes it is merely a difference in point of view, or of information possessed, or of transient uncertainties.
I was born Catholic, raised Baptist and grew up de... (show quote)


Adam and Eve ate the fruit. You might not like the set up God made but you know the Bible so you know God is real.

| Reply
Apr 15, 2019 06:23:40   #
RT friend (a regular here)
 
JW wrote:
I was born Catholic, raised Baptist and grew up devoutly religious; saved, born again, and a frequent leader of the Sunday evening service at our church. Today, I am agnostic.

Former church-mates of mine are quite certain that I could not have been sincere if I am truly agnostic today. I have assured them, and now you, that I was as sincere then as I am now and I am as sincere as I can possibly be.

There may be a God, I don’t know, but the characterizations of God currently celebrated on planet Earth are pure fiction in my view.

Why do I say such a thing? Firstly, if God can truly do anything, why would He design a universe that cannibalizes itself at every level. Why would any omnipotent being create a system in which His greatest creations can only exist by destroying His other creations? The sadism in that design says nothing positive about a universal creator.

Secondly, if God is truly omniscient, knows all, past, present, future, He would have known from the very beginning of the pain and terror felt by every prey species and every mistreated child throughout the history of His Creations. Once again, the sadism in that behavior says nothing positive about such a universal creator.

Thirdly, if God really is omnipresent as advertised, He is an ever-present witness to all of the pain and agony, torture and death, loss and grief that He has designed into His creations. Finally, the sadism in that voyeuristic proposition says nothing positive about such a universal creator.

I do not object to anyone’s personal beliefs so long as they remain personal. I do not discourage any from their beliefs. I don’t know if it is possible to exist as a society without some omnipotent father figure somewhere in the mix. The current devaluation of the strong father archetype is having some very unfortunate and profound impacts on our ability to maintain and operate a civilized society. That is another of what I view as failures in the design.

It is not my goal here to attack or promote any belief. It is my intention to present an argument for open-mindedness. I know that is a difficult standard to maintain. It requires a constant review of one’s own feelings and information bases. It is not always a matter of conviction that leads us to separate conclusions. Sometimes it is merely a difference in point of view, or of information possessed, or of transient uncertainties.
I was born Catholic, raised Baptist and grew up de... (show quote)


But JW what your referring too is the tragedy of the great mistake, I was there when it happened so I should know.

However I'm not sure it could be helped in so far as the mistake if it didn't happen anything woul be much different to what it is today, maybe (p) Adam wouldn't be the harbinger of misfortune because there would be much less of that, but symbiotic relationship would be just as unabated, honesty JW that's all there was in possibility.

As it turned out God is pleased with existence, and we are indeed fortunate to be in it, with the opportunity to increase its virtue as the Great Prophet Moses indicated when He said 40 years in the wilderness is a small price to pay for the opportunity to complement reality even though we don't know what it means.

I of course am the Taheb (Prophet Moses come again), and what I learned during revelation was everything about Creation.

Concerning the great mistake it happened when reality was a contest between the protagonists and symbiosis was already spreading as they had conjured up a Prophet Particle.

Alas , !!! hearken my heart is broken JW .. .. I am overcome with emotion,..... I find it difficult to continue...... such is the story of the missing prophet particle, who in now in Occultation I suspect with my GF.
Can't continue must get some respite.







| Reply
Apr 15, 2019 06:29:52   #
JW (a regular here)
 
Richard Rowland wrote:
I think, JW, if honest, most of us struggle with the same issues. However, there are those who go thru life rarely thinking one-way-or-another about the prospect of if there is a God or not. It is only logical that given a brain, we who have delved a bit into the official word of God would question it.

I read recently that a mountain lion had attacked a young child, the mother heard her child's screams, rushed to rescue the child, jumping on the lion and asking God's help. The lion did release the child and ran off.

There is no doubt the outcome of what could have been much worse, has reinforced this mother's belief in God. Still, the question could be, why did God allow that to happen in the first place?

Personally, I believe in a higher power. Not so much, though, in God, man has created. I have experienced what I believe to be the work of a higher power, however, some would say mere coincidence. To each his own!
I think, JW, if honest, most of us struggle with t... (show quote)


I suppose, at some level, that is the relevant and difficult question, why it happened at all. However, I am not ready to ask that. my questioning is of the illogic of the entire construction. I'm still working on the easier questions; the ones for which definite answers should be able to be found.

| Reply
Apr 15, 2019 06:33:11   #
JW (a regular here)
 
badbob85037 wrote:
Adam and Eve ate the fruit. You might not like the set up God made but you know the Bible so you know God is real.


It's not about like or dislike. It's about making sense of the whole thing. Like and dislike can come after that.

| Reply
Apr 15, 2019 06:36:26   #
JW (a regular here)
 
RT friend wrote:
But JW what your referring too is the tragedy of the great mistake, I was there when it happened so I should know.

However I'm not sure it could be helped in so far as the mistake if it didn't happen anything woul be much different to what it is today, maybe (p) Adam wouldn't be the harbinger of misfortune because there would be much less of that, but symbiotic relationship would be just as unabated, honesty JW that's all there was in possibility.

As it turned out God is pleased with existence, and we are indeed fortunate to be in it, with the opportunity to increase its virtue as the Great Prophet Moses indicated when He said 40 years in the wilderness is a small price to pay for the opportunity to complement reality even though we don't know what it means.

I of course am the Taheb (Prophet Moses come again), and what I learned during revelation was everything about Creation.

Concerning the great mistake it happened when reality was a contest between the protagonists and symbiosis was already spreading as they had conjured up a Prophet Particle.

Alas , !!! hearken my heart is broken JW .. .. I am overcome with emotion,..... I find it difficult to continue...... such is the story of the missing prophet particle, who in now in Occultation I suspect with my GF.
Can't continue must get some respite.






But JW what your referring too is the tragedy of... (show quote)


What I enquire into occurred long before Adam.

| Reply
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