The teachings.... Jesus vice Saul/Paul
Feb 7, 2019 12:51:12 #
Boo_Boo
Loc: Jellystone
This is a long read...and I invite civil discussion. My views may be wrong... so, I am open to what you have to say.
Qualifier: Before we get into the teachings of Jesus vice Saul o Tarsus, aka Paul I want to make it abundantly clear that I have no personal like or dislike for Saul/Paul. In my opinion, he was first and foremost a very real person who had a very substantial impact upon the early Christian Church. What I will relay to you is easy to verify. I do not provide this information to you to sway your belief system or lead you in any direction.
Let us take a close look at Saul who began his life as both a Jew and a Roman citizen, born in Tarsus of Cilicia (Modern day Turkey, near the Tarsus River, about 12 miles (20 km) from the Mediterranean Sea coast.) (Acts 22:3; Phil 3:5). He had dual citizenship and as he was a Pharisee. (Philip 3) To understand him, you must first understand just who were the Pharisees to include their belief systems. *For a timeline of Saul of Tarsus see https://www.blueletterbible.org/study/paul/timeline.cfm This website is complete with applicable, and verified, bible references.
The Pharisees were not a political party but a society of scholars and pietists. In the New Testament, they appear to be spokesmen for much of the population in Levant—the Holy Land. About 100 BCE a long struggle ensued as the Pharisees tried to democratize the Jewish religion and remove it from the control of the Temple priests. The Pharisees asserted that G*d could and should be worshiped even away from the Temple and outside Jerusalem. To the Pharisees, worship consisted not in sacrifices—the practice of the Temple priests—but in prayer and in the study of G*d’s law. Hence, the Pharisees fostered the synagogue as an institution of religious worship, outside and separate from the Temple. The synagogue may thus be considered a Pharisaic institution, since the Pharisees developed it, raised it to high eminence, and gave it a principal place in Jewish religious life.
The active period of Pharasaism, the most-influential movement extended well into the 2nd and 3rd centuries CE. The Pharisees preserved and transmitted Judaism through the flexibility they gave to Jewish scriptural interpretation in the face of changing historical circumstances. The efforts they devoted to education also had a seminal importance in subsequent Jewish history. After the destruction of the Second Temple and the fall of Jerusalem in 70 CE, it was the synagogue and the schools of the Pharisees that continued to function and to promote Judaism in the long centuries following the Diaspora.
Keep this in mind as we go thought the teachings of Saul/Paul and Jesus.
Kingdom Doctrine of Jesus or the Justification/Replacement aka Fulfillment Doctrine or Saul/Paul
I feel the need to define these terms before discussion:
Kingdom Doctrine; was proclaimed by *John the Baptizer, taught by Jesus and his 12 disciples (did not include Saul of Tarsus). See Matthew 3, 4, and 9. Was preached only to the Jews (Matthew 15). Required repentance, baptism, and faith + works. See Deuteronomy 28, Zechariah 14, Isaiah 2 and 11, and Matthew 19. Content of message was Jesus was the Messiah, the Son of G*d. And as proclaimed by Jesus the Kingdom (Luke 17) is inside of everyone. *special note: John the Baptizer was Jesus’ cousin.
Replacement/Fulfillment Doctrine; Proclaimed by Paul, taught to the Gentiles see Acts, 1 Corinthians 15, requires faith alone, and the church became the “chosen people” of G*d replacing the Jew.
Before we approach the subject at hand, I can imagine you saying or thinking that Jesus did not like the Scribes or Pharisees. This is not entirely true. He did not like what they were doing, or attitude…but, did not really have a problem with the message. See Matthew 23… there is a nugget “The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses’ seat; therefore, do whatever they teach you and follow it; but do not do as they do, for they do not practice what they teach.” So, shoot the messenger but preserve the message.
Now let us get into Pauline Doctrine and the Kingdom Doctrine of Jesus.
Let us take a close look; one of the early persecutors of Christians (those who followed Jesus) was a man name Saul of Tarsus, both a Roman citizen and a Jew. There is no record how he obtained a dual status, and one can only speculate. What we do know, from his own words, he was no friend of the new “cult” of those following the Jesus. See Acts chapter 7 and chapter 22. Regardless, one must give credit where credit is due, he was highly educated. Saul opens his doctrine by an introduction, he claimed he had a vision on the road to Damascus and due to that vision, he became a changed man. To signify his new life, he renamed himself from “Saul” to “Paul.” Because of his education and status, Paul was very impressive to most of the founding Christians who were mostly uneducated fishermen and shepherds, such as Peter and John, who are described in Acts 4:13 as being “unlearned and ignorant” , which was written by gospel-writer Luke, a presumably-educated physician and a close friend to Saul/Paul. (A couple of notable exceptions are James, the brother of Jesus, and Matthew, the Publican. In addition to being educated, these are two of the New Testament writers who had lived closest to Jesus during his actual lifetime and ministry.)
Letters of Saul are eloquent, clearly demonstrate his educational achievements, and fill up one third of the New Testament. And they undermine the teachings of Jesus. Why? I can speculate… Perhaps this admitted persecutor of Christians found a more effective way to subvert the followers of Jesus. But, it is not possible to question him on his motives, he is long dead. What we can say with certainty, however, is that after examining the legacy of writing he left — more than any other writer in the Bible — that for whatever reason, intentional or a great historical misunderstanding, the message he left opposed and undermined that of the titular messiah (Jesus the “Christ”) to whom he claimed obeisance. The evidence becomes apparent when we compare the words of Paul side by side with those attributed to Jesus (who left no writings of his own) and to the other followers closest to Jesus, such as his brother James.
Let’s examine the record:
Faith vs. Works
On the critical religious matter of just what it takes to attain salvation, what Jesus teaches is very different than what is written in the words “apostle” Paul.
Paul teaches salvation on faith alone. Jesus on the other hand stressed behavior requirements; work and deeds. More clearly, an internal change of spiritual growth is integral to salvation. While perhaps it is not possible for us to “earn” the “free gift” that Jesus did give — a teaching of the universal compassionate love by which the evil within us can be transformed into a more holy kindness of love — Jesus clearly includes a behavioral component to his requirements for “salvation.” While he does not say that this satisfies any “debt,” he still requires it. See James 2:26, that we demonstrate our faith — if it is genuine — by our deeds. At this point, one or more of our bible scholars will say… but Isaiah 64:6 says: “We have all become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous deeds are like a polluted garment. We all fade like a leaf, and our iniquities, like the wind, take us away.” This is true, our puny mortal attempts of righteousness will fall short. Just as a child may offer its parents an awkwardly-drawn piece of art, which likely holds little real artistic merit (in terms of art critics it might be as “filthy rags”), still the parents sincerely and genuinely cherish such efforts. It may not “merit” winning any serious art award and may be able to “earn” very little, but loving parents accept it for its true and lasting value. So, our G*d, a perfect spiritual Father, will accept our “filthy rags” if they are offered as both sincere and our best effort. John, Chapter 3 “And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil.”
In his first public teaching (the Sermon on the Mount) Jesus introduces a bold new concept, not only that we should love friends and neighbors, but our enemies as well.
When asked by a lawyer what the most important commandment in the law was, Jesus answered (as reported in Matt 22:36-40 and Luke 10:25-37) with references from the Old Testament, that the greatest law was to love G*d (see Deut 6:5) and the second was to love your neighbor as yourself (see Lev 19:18). In the Luke text, the lawyer specifically asks what is necessary for eternal life and after Jesus references the two great commandments, he says “This do and you will live.” In the book of Luke, Jesus gives the example of the “good Samaritan” to illustrate the term “neighbor.” Interesting, there is nothing in the parable that implies that the “Samaritan” was either saved by faith or even one who is a follower of Jesus. Yet, Jesus points him out as one gained eternal life because of his actions.
Further in Jesus’ minister he gave another example… Matthew, Mark, and Luke reports the same… that to be like “children” to enter the Kingdom. So, Jesus makes it clear that compassion and innocence are important. While Paul stresses maturity and demands that we forsake things of childhood. See 1 Corinthians. Leads one to think that the gift of eternal life rests on mature (adult) acceptance of Jesus without ever performing a kind, compassionate or cheerful (childish) deed.
TBC
Qualifier: Before we get into the teachings of Jesus vice Saul o Tarsus, aka Paul I want to make it abundantly clear that I have no personal like or dislike for Saul/Paul. In my opinion, he was first and foremost a very real person who had a very substantial impact upon the early Christian Church. What I will relay to you is easy to verify. I do not provide this information to you to sway your belief system or lead you in any direction.
Let us take a close look at Saul who began his life as both a Jew and a Roman citizen, born in Tarsus of Cilicia (Modern day Turkey, near the Tarsus River, about 12 miles (20 km) from the Mediterranean Sea coast.) (Acts 22:3; Phil 3:5). He had dual citizenship and as he was a Pharisee. (Philip 3) To understand him, you must first understand just who were the Pharisees to include their belief systems. *For a timeline of Saul of Tarsus see https://www.blueletterbible.org/study/paul/timeline.cfm This website is complete with applicable, and verified, bible references.
The Pharisees were not a political party but a society of scholars and pietists. In the New Testament, they appear to be spokesmen for much of the population in Levant—the Holy Land. About 100 BCE a long struggle ensued as the Pharisees tried to democratize the Jewish religion and remove it from the control of the Temple priests. The Pharisees asserted that G*d could and should be worshiped even away from the Temple and outside Jerusalem. To the Pharisees, worship consisted not in sacrifices—the practice of the Temple priests—but in prayer and in the study of G*d’s law. Hence, the Pharisees fostered the synagogue as an institution of religious worship, outside and separate from the Temple. The synagogue may thus be considered a Pharisaic institution, since the Pharisees developed it, raised it to high eminence, and gave it a principal place in Jewish religious life.
The active period of Pharasaism, the most-influential movement extended well into the 2nd and 3rd centuries CE. The Pharisees preserved and transmitted Judaism through the flexibility they gave to Jewish scriptural interpretation in the face of changing historical circumstances. The efforts they devoted to education also had a seminal importance in subsequent Jewish history. After the destruction of the Second Temple and the fall of Jerusalem in 70 CE, it was the synagogue and the schools of the Pharisees that continued to function and to promote Judaism in the long centuries following the Diaspora.
Keep this in mind as we go thought the teachings of Saul/Paul and Jesus.
Kingdom Doctrine of Jesus or the Justification/Replacement aka Fulfillment Doctrine or Saul/Paul
I feel the need to define these terms before discussion:
Kingdom Doctrine; was proclaimed by *John the Baptizer, taught by Jesus and his 12 disciples (did not include Saul of Tarsus). See Matthew 3, 4, and 9. Was preached only to the Jews (Matthew 15). Required repentance, baptism, and faith + works. See Deuteronomy 28, Zechariah 14, Isaiah 2 and 11, and Matthew 19. Content of message was Jesus was the Messiah, the Son of G*d. And as proclaimed by Jesus the Kingdom (Luke 17) is inside of everyone. *special note: John the Baptizer was Jesus’ cousin.
Replacement/Fulfillment Doctrine; Proclaimed by Paul, taught to the Gentiles see Acts, 1 Corinthians 15, requires faith alone, and the church became the “chosen people” of G*d replacing the Jew.
Before we approach the subject at hand, I can imagine you saying or thinking that Jesus did not like the Scribes or Pharisees. This is not entirely true. He did not like what they were doing, or attitude…but, did not really have a problem with the message. See Matthew 23… there is a nugget “The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses’ seat; therefore, do whatever they teach you and follow it; but do not do as they do, for they do not practice what they teach.” So, shoot the messenger but preserve the message.
Now let us get into Pauline Doctrine and the Kingdom Doctrine of Jesus.
Let us take a close look; one of the early persecutors of Christians (those who followed Jesus) was a man name Saul of Tarsus, both a Roman citizen and a Jew. There is no record how he obtained a dual status, and one can only speculate. What we do know, from his own words, he was no friend of the new “cult” of those following the Jesus. See Acts chapter 7 and chapter 22. Regardless, one must give credit where credit is due, he was highly educated. Saul opens his doctrine by an introduction, he claimed he had a vision on the road to Damascus and due to that vision, he became a changed man. To signify his new life, he renamed himself from “Saul” to “Paul.” Because of his education and status, Paul was very impressive to most of the founding Christians who were mostly uneducated fishermen and shepherds, such as Peter and John, who are described in Acts 4:13 as being “unlearned and ignorant” , which was written by gospel-writer Luke, a presumably-educated physician and a close friend to Saul/Paul. (A couple of notable exceptions are James, the brother of Jesus, and Matthew, the Publican. In addition to being educated, these are two of the New Testament writers who had lived closest to Jesus during his actual lifetime and ministry.)
Letters of Saul are eloquent, clearly demonstrate his educational achievements, and fill up one third of the New Testament. And they undermine the teachings of Jesus. Why? I can speculate… Perhaps this admitted persecutor of Christians found a more effective way to subvert the followers of Jesus. But, it is not possible to question him on his motives, he is long dead. What we can say with certainty, however, is that after examining the legacy of writing he left — more than any other writer in the Bible — that for whatever reason, intentional or a great historical misunderstanding, the message he left opposed and undermined that of the titular messiah (Jesus the “Christ”) to whom he claimed obeisance. The evidence becomes apparent when we compare the words of Paul side by side with those attributed to Jesus (who left no writings of his own) and to the other followers closest to Jesus, such as his brother James.
Let’s examine the record:
Faith vs. Works
On the critical religious matter of just what it takes to attain salvation, what Jesus teaches is very different than what is written in the words “apostle” Paul.
Paul teaches salvation on faith alone. Jesus on the other hand stressed behavior requirements; work and deeds. More clearly, an internal change of spiritual growth is integral to salvation. While perhaps it is not possible for us to “earn” the “free gift” that Jesus did give — a teaching of the universal compassionate love by which the evil within us can be transformed into a more holy kindness of love — Jesus clearly includes a behavioral component to his requirements for “salvation.” While he does not say that this satisfies any “debt,” he still requires it. See James 2:26, that we demonstrate our faith — if it is genuine — by our deeds. At this point, one or more of our bible scholars will say… but Isaiah 64:6 says: “We have all become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous deeds are like a polluted garment. We all fade like a leaf, and our iniquities, like the wind, take us away.” This is true, our puny mortal attempts of righteousness will fall short. Just as a child may offer its parents an awkwardly-drawn piece of art, which likely holds little real artistic merit (in terms of art critics it might be as “filthy rags”), still the parents sincerely and genuinely cherish such efforts. It may not “merit” winning any serious art award and may be able to “earn” very little, but loving parents accept it for its true and lasting value. So, our G*d, a perfect spiritual Father, will accept our “filthy rags” if they are offered as both sincere and our best effort. John, Chapter 3 “And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil.”
In his first public teaching (the Sermon on the Mount) Jesus introduces a bold new concept, not only that we should love friends and neighbors, but our enemies as well.
When asked by a lawyer what the most important commandment in the law was, Jesus answered (as reported in Matt 22:36-40 and Luke 10:25-37) with references from the Old Testament, that the greatest law was to love G*d (see Deut 6:5) and the second was to love your neighbor as yourself (see Lev 19:18). In the Luke text, the lawyer specifically asks what is necessary for eternal life and after Jesus references the two great commandments, he says “This do and you will live.” In the book of Luke, Jesus gives the example of the “good Samaritan” to illustrate the term “neighbor.” Interesting, there is nothing in the parable that implies that the “Samaritan” was either saved by faith or even one who is a follower of Jesus. Yet, Jesus points him out as one gained eternal life because of his actions.
Further in Jesus’ minister he gave another example… Matthew, Mark, and Luke reports the same… that to be like “children” to enter the Kingdom. So, Jesus makes it clear that compassion and innocence are important. While Paul stresses maturity and demands that we forsake things of childhood. See 1 Corinthians. Leads one to think that the gift of eternal life rests on mature (adult) acceptance of Jesus without ever performing a kind, compassionate or cheerful (childish) deed.
TBC
Feb 7, 2019 12:56:24 #
Boo_Boo
Loc: Jellystone
Continued:
One of the most profound examples given by Jesus was his last sermon, Matthew 25. He talks about the last judgment and plainly states that actions are important. “Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.” Jesus makes it very clear that those who do express universal compassion in behavioral action will be saved, and those who do not will not be saved. Period. There is no other qualification.
There is an amazing example of compassion, and it occurred in a most dreadful place. Dr. Viktor Frankl, a German Jew who survived the Nazi concentration camps during the Holocaust, wrote in his book Man’s Search for Meaning of rare but remarkable examples of men in the concentration camps who, dying of hunger, still gave comfort, along with their last crusts of bread, to their fellow sufferers to alleviate their suffering. They were not converts, never saved by Paul’s vision of “grace” and followed, even under punishment, the “laws.” According to Paul, these men have no hope of everlasting life, not saved by “grace.” Hell bound? We will leave the Pauline Doctrine’s vision of hell for another time… just a warning, it is not pretty.
Children…. Are they hell bound? Do they meet the criteria of the Pauline Doctrine… Belief requires exposure. So, what about those who were supposedly created by a G*d who is both just and merciful, but lived in a time or place when there would be no possible chance of ever being exposed to Jesus? And aborted children? Jesus taught that of such is the kingdom of heaven (Matt 18:4-5; 19:14; Mark 9:36-37; 10:14-15; Luke 18:15-17), while (as noted previously) Jesus taught that of such is the kingdom of heaven (Matt 18:4-5; 19:14; Mark 9:36-37; 10:14-15; Luke 18:15-17).
Even in John 3, the discourse to Nicodemus on salvation as a gift of grace, Jesus includes specific behavioral requirements (John 3:19-21). In any case, while some writings (other than Paul) may occasionally discuss faith as a separate topic (as with honesty, courage, etc.), no one (except Paul) ever states that salvation can occur with any of these virtues apart from works/deeds actions. This does not mean that, in teaching us the behavior of salvation that Jesus did not thus give us a free gift far beyond what we could ever earn, a gift of grace, but it does not mean that it was given entirely apart from specified behavioral conditions, as Paul says.
TBC[/quote]
One of the most profound examples given by Jesus was his last sermon, Matthew 25. He talks about the last judgment and plainly states that actions are important. “Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.” Jesus makes it very clear that those who do express universal compassion in behavioral action will be saved, and those who do not will not be saved. Period. There is no other qualification.
There is an amazing example of compassion, and it occurred in a most dreadful place. Dr. Viktor Frankl, a German Jew who survived the Nazi concentration camps during the Holocaust, wrote in his book Man’s Search for Meaning of rare but remarkable examples of men in the concentration camps who, dying of hunger, still gave comfort, along with their last crusts of bread, to their fellow sufferers to alleviate their suffering. They were not converts, never saved by Paul’s vision of “grace” and followed, even under punishment, the “laws.” According to Paul, these men have no hope of everlasting life, not saved by “grace.” Hell bound? We will leave the Pauline Doctrine’s vision of hell for another time… just a warning, it is not pretty.
Children…. Are they hell bound? Do they meet the criteria of the Pauline Doctrine… Belief requires exposure. So, what about those who were supposedly created by a G*d who is both just and merciful, but lived in a time or place when there would be no possible chance of ever being exposed to Jesus? And aborted children? Jesus taught that of such is the kingdom of heaven (Matt 18:4-5; 19:14; Mark 9:36-37; 10:14-15; Luke 18:15-17), while (as noted previously) Jesus taught that of such is the kingdom of heaven (Matt 18:4-5; 19:14; Mark 9:36-37; 10:14-15; Luke 18:15-17).
Even in John 3, the discourse to Nicodemus on salvation as a gift of grace, Jesus includes specific behavioral requirements (John 3:19-21). In any case, while some writings (other than Paul) may occasionally discuss faith as a separate topic (as with honesty, courage, etc.), no one (except Paul) ever states that salvation can occur with any of these virtues apart from works/deeds actions. This does not mean that, in teaching us the behavior of salvation that Jesus did not thus give us a free gift far beyond what we could ever earn, a gift of grace, but it does not mean that it was given entirely apart from specified behavioral conditions, as Paul says.
TBC[/quote]
Feb 7, 2019 13:02:11 #
Boo_Boo
Loc: Jellystone
Continued:
Reward and Punishment.
Heaven….. in a gold nugget. “No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man.”
When many think of heaven, they think of what Paul of Tarsus described after he was resurrected. There were several people per the bible that were resurrected, see 2 Kings, Mark, Matthew and John. However, what sets the stories apart, Paul of Tarsus is the only one who saw heaven or actually went to heaven.
However, other than Paul, this is what the bible says:
Heaven (or heavens) has several meanings in the Bible. The physical heaven refers to all of the universe beyond earth (Genesis 1:1, Matthew 24:29, Revelation 12:3-4).
Heaven is also the dwelling place of God (Deuteronomy 26:15, 1 Kings 8:28-30, Matthew 5:44-45).
When Christ returns, heaven and earth will be re-created or brought to perfection in accordance with G*d's will (Isaiah 65:17, 66:22, 2 Peter 3:10-13, Revelation 21:1). This new perfect world will be the final dwelling place for those who are saved (John 14:2-3, 1 Peter 1:3-4).
Occasionally, someone will bring up the case of the thief being crucified alongside Jesus, and note that Jesus said to him in Luke 23:43, “Today you will be with me in Paradise.”
The claim is that Jesus granted salvation solely on his profession of support for the dying Jesus. However, we do not know what past aspects of character or behavior Jesus took into consideration that preceded the cross. Perhaps if one is hanging on a cross, the utterance of a word of encouragement to one in similar straits — truly humbled to the status of “least of these” — might be the most you can do. But again, we don’t know why the thief was on the cross. Perhaps he had gotten caught stealing a loaf of bread from a Roman Centurion who had taken it from an impoverished widow, and the “thief” was trying to return it to its rightful owner. The text does not say, so I draw no conclusions, as are those who are quick to jump to conclusions about details not in the passage.
In any case, even if one accepted such an interpretation, it would simply be yet another Bible contradiction in addition to those already provided, since it directly opposes those verses I have cited in which Jesus clearly states that salvation is based on universal compassionate love expressed actively in deeds, but without mentioning faith or belief at all.
All of the gospels are replete with statements of behavioral obligation that never once make any statement remotely similar to Paul that the faith and grace that engender salvation occur “apart from” obedience, works or deeds.
Reward and Punishment.
Heaven….. in a gold nugget. “No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man.”
When many think of heaven, they think of what Paul of Tarsus described after he was resurrected. There were several people per the bible that were resurrected, see 2 Kings, Mark, Matthew and John. However, what sets the stories apart, Paul of Tarsus is the only one who saw heaven or actually went to heaven.
However, other than Paul, this is what the bible says:
Heaven (or heavens) has several meanings in the Bible. The physical heaven refers to all of the universe beyond earth (Genesis 1:1, Matthew 24:29, Revelation 12:3-4).
Heaven is also the dwelling place of God (Deuteronomy 26:15, 1 Kings 8:28-30, Matthew 5:44-45).
When Christ returns, heaven and earth will be re-created or brought to perfection in accordance with G*d's will (Isaiah 65:17, 66:22, 2 Peter 3:10-13, Revelation 21:1). This new perfect world will be the final dwelling place for those who are saved (John 14:2-3, 1 Peter 1:3-4).
Occasionally, someone will bring up the case of the thief being crucified alongside Jesus, and note that Jesus said to him in Luke 23:43, “Today you will be with me in Paradise.”
The claim is that Jesus granted salvation solely on his profession of support for the dying Jesus. However, we do not know what past aspects of character or behavior Jesus took into consideration that preceded the cross. Perhaps if one is hanging on a cross, the utterance of a word of encouragement to one in similar straits — truly humbled to the status of “least of these” — might be the most you can do. But again, we don’t know why the thief was on the cross. Perhaps he had gotten caught stealing a loaf of bread from a Roman Centurion who had taken it from an impoverished widow, and the “thief” was trying to return it to its rightful owner. The text does not say, so I draw no conclusions, as are those who are quick to jump to conclusions about details not in the passage.
In any case, even if one accepted such an interpretation, it would simply be yet another Bible contradiction in addition to those already provided, since it directly opposes those verses I have cited in which Jesus clearly states that salvation is based on universal compassionate love expressed actively in deeds, but without mentioning faith or belief at all.
All of the gospels are replete with statements of behavioral obligation that never once make any statement remotely similar to Paul that the faith and grace that engender salvation occur “apart from” obedience, works or deeds.
Pennylynn wrote:
[/quote]Continued: br br One of the most profound example... (show quote)
Feb 7, 2019 14:28:07 #
The first question is how does one view the bible itself? As the inspired word of God? Or as a collection of writings by various men or something in between?
Christians view it all as inspired by the Holy Spirit and thus cannot and does not contradict itself. Paul writes to supplement, not supplant Christ's teachings.
Though Christ did not explicitly say justification is by faith alone He clearly illustrates it in His teaching. Faith without works is dead but there is no fruit (works) without first having faith. The fruit can't exist without the faith. There are many verses to support this and I'm sure someone else will chime in with more. Due to time this is a short Readers Digest condensed version. lol
This parable is an illustration -
"Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee, and the other a tax-gatherer. The Pharisee stood and was praying thus to himself, 'God, I thank Thee that I am not like other people: swindlers, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax-gatherer. I fast twice a week; I pay tithes of all that I get.' But the tax-gatherer, standing some distance away, was even unwilling to lift up his eyes to heaven, but was beating his breast, saying, 'God, be merciful to me, the sinner!' I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself shall be humbled, but he who humbles himself shall be exalted" Luke 18:91-4
And this also shows justification is not by works or behavior -
22“Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ 23 “And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’" Matt 7:22-23
Christians view it all as inspired by the Holy Spirit and thus cannot and does not contradict itself. Paul writes to supplement, not supplant Christ's teachings.
Though Christ did not explicitly say justification is by faith alone He clearly illustrates it in His teaching. Faith without works is dead but there is no fruit (works) without first having faith. The fruit can't exist without the faith. There are many verses to support this and I'm sure someone else will chime in with more. Due to time this is a short Readers Digest condensed version. lol
This parable is an illustration -
"Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee, and the other a tax-gatherer. The Pharisee stood and was praying thus to himself, 'God, I thank Thee that I am not like other people: swindlers, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax-gatherer. I fast twice a week; I pay tithes of all that I get.' But the tax-gatherer, standing some distance away, was even unwilling to lift up his eyes to heaven, but was beating his breast, saying, 'God, be merciful to me, the sinner!' I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself shall be humbled, but he who humbles himself shall be exalted" Luke 18:91-4
And this also shows justification is not by works or behavior -
22“Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ 23 “And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’" Matt 7:22-23
Feb 7, 2019 15:24:09 #
Boo_Boo
Loc: Jellystone
Interesting, and how appropriate to the "war" going on in FR&S.... the tax man and Pharisee (apparently a very conceded man)....Luke 18:13, the Pharisee tells of his good works not once did he ask to be forgiven. He was full of himself, his perfection compared to other. The other recognizes that he is a sinner, apparently lacking in the need to show how superior he is to others. He asks to be forgiven. Jesus said the tax man would be forgiven. He implied that the man would be forgiven by G*d for the sins committed to that point. He did not say that he would be forgiven in the future if he did not change his ways. In other words, the taxman saw that he was not living a "righteous" life (by simply saying "G*d, have mercy on me, a sinner).
Your second quote from Matthew is interesting... it could be understood in the way of your presentation, but I see it somewhat differently. Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,'" but on the expression, "He who does the will of My Father." Jesus did not say that no one who says "Lord, Lord" will enter the kingdom. He said, rather, that not all who say that will enter. Notice that Jesus does not question whether they actually did such deeds. Yet He rebukes them for not doing the Father's will and He denies them kingdom entrance.
So, who among those who say "Lord, Lord" will enter? I think it means those who do the will of the Father, and that brings us to... What is the will of our Father?
Your second quote from Matthew is interesting... it could be understood in the way of your presentation, but I see it somewhat differently. Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,'" but on the expression, "He who does the will of My Father." Jesus did not say that no one who says "Lord, Lord" will enter the kingdom. He said, rather, that not all who say that will enter. Notice that Jesus does not question whether they actually did such deeds. Yet He rebukes them for not doing the Father's will and He denies them kingdom entrance.
So, who among those who say "Lord, Lord" will enter? I think it means those who do the will of the Father, and that brings us to... What is the will of our Father?
Rose42 wrote:
The first question is how does one view the bible ... (show quote)
Feb 7, 2019 16:53:01 #
Pennylynn wrote:
Interesting, and how appropriate to the "war&... (show quote)
What is the will of our Father? For Christians - To be saved and all flows from that. To repent of our sins and ask forgiveness and to accept Jesus as Lord over all aspects of our life. But if one is not sincere they will not be saved. If you are saved and thus filled with the Spirit there will be fruit in your life. That fruit can manifest itself in many ways. It doesn't mean merely doing good deeds. If you have no fruit then you are not saved. This is what is meant by James when he says "faith without works is dead".
That's a simplistic answer but in reality it's hard. Hebrews 12:1 it says "....let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us,". The Greek word for race is agon from which we get the word agony. It takes discipline in the war against the flesh.
Another interesting parable is the Prodigal Son. One squandered everything then came back totally humbled and contrite and was forgiven. Another important lesson is the son who stayed with the father and did all he asked but he had no love for his father. The latter describes many who profess a belief in God.
Feb 7, 2019 21:55:49 #
Rose42 wrote:
What is the will of our Father? For Christians - ... (show quote)
===============0
Protestants are not Christians. They do not have a covenant with Christ. They belong to Luther, Calvin, and Zwingli. They have been trying to change history, via their 501 years of man-made Sola Scriptura, and rule over the Gospel of Christ.
Feb 7, 2019 22:06:03 #
Radiance3 wrote:
===============0
Protestants are not Christians. They do not have a covenant with Christ. They belong to Luther, Calvin, and Zwingli. They have been trying to change history, via their 501 years of man-made Sola Scriptura, and rule over the Gospel of Christ.
Protestants are not Christians. They do not have a covenant with Christ. They belong to Luther, Calvin, and Zwingli. They have been trying to change history, via their 501 years of man-made Sola Scriptura, and rule over the Gospel of Christ.
Now what does any of that have to do with this most interesting thread?
Why not start your own thread instead of trolling others?
God bless....
Feb 7, 2019 22:33:02 #
Boo_Boo
Loc: Jellystone
Welcome back.... how was your holiday?
Canuckus Deploracus wrote:
Now what does any of that have to do with this most interesting thread?
Why not start your own thread instead of trolling others?
God bless....
Why not start your own thread instead of trolling others?
God bless....
Feb 7, 2019 22:42:56 #
Pennylynn wrote:
Welcome back.... how was your holiday?
Still on it...
My brother-in-law is feuding with my mother-in-law... It is most uncomfortable to be in the room with them... So I have removed myself to another part of the house and have been online for the past day or so...
We will be returning home tomorrow...
Unfortunate how it has worked out...
Feb 7, 2019 23:15:36 #
Boo_Boo
Loc: Jellystone
I am so very sorry for the lag in responding to your comment. You made me stop and think, so thank you and forgive me.
The will of our Father... sounded so profound when I first wrote that remark.
But, actually... His will is laid out in the Bible, whether you consult the old or New
Testament. "And He said to him, “You shall love the Lord your G*d with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind." and "You shall love your neighbor as thy self." Matthew 22:37-39. So, it is His will for us to love, first our Father then our neighbor. But, how do we do that in such a dysfunctional world? Just how can we love our neighbor when they are entrenched in hate? And how can we show love, unconditional and with full abandonment, for our Father?
And... I apologize again, I strayed from the topic.
The will of our Father... sounded so profound when I first wrote that remark.
But, actually... His will is laid out in the Bible, whether you consult the old or New
Testament. "And He said to him, “You shall love the Lord your G*d with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind." and "You shall love your neighbor as thy self." Matthew 22:37-39. So, it is His will for us to love, first our Father then our neighbor. But, how do we do that in such a dysfunctional world? Just how can we love our neighbor when they are entrenched in hate? And how can we show love, unconditional and with full abandonment, for our Father?
And... I apologize again, I strayed from the topic.
Rose42 wrote:
What is the will of our Father? For Christians - ... (show quote)
Feb 7, 2019 23:19:03 #
Boo_Boo
Loc: Jellystone
I am sorry.... yes, it can be uncomfortable in such circumstances. In my community, I have many (perhaps at times, too many) relatives and someone is always feuding with someone every day of the week.... and the truly uncomfortable part is when I am expected to "defend" one or the other.....
Be safe on your journey home.
Be safe on your journey home.
Canuckus Deploracus wrote:
Still on it...
My brother-in-law is feuding with my mother-in-law... It is most uncomfortable to be in the room with them... So I have removed myself to another part of the house and have been online for the past day or so...
We will be returning home tomorrow...
Unfortunate how it has worked out...
My brother-in-law is feuding with my mother-in-law... It is most uncomfortable to be in the room with them... So I have removed myself to another part of the house and have been online for the past day or so...
We will be returning home tomorrow...
Unfortunate how it has worked out...
Feb 7, 2019 23:41:05 #
Pennylynn wrote:
I am sorry.... yes, it can be uncomfortable in such circumstances. In my community, I have many (perhaps at times, too many) relatives and someone is always feuding with someone every day of the week.... and the truly uncomfortable part is when I am expected to "defend" one or the other.....
Be safe on your journey home.
Be safe on your journey home.
Thanks...
As a foreigner I never offer opinions to my in-laws concerning their 'feuds'...shudder...
I hope more members comment on this thread.. It is very interesting...
I had no intention of posting on it (just enjoy reading the discussion) But have become increasingly tired of the spamming going on in the forum... This is the third time I have encountered the above member's spam.. I wish her peace and love... But it becomes upsetting when a thread is derailed...
And that being said... I now apologize for my (completely unintentional) derailing of this thread... And fade into the background again...
Feb 7, 2019 23:52:27 #
Boo_Boo
Loc: Jellystone
You are always welcome on any threads! I find our conversations, even when they stray, very enjoyable. You are quite civil, even when we disagree.... so, I will not accept your apology for you did nothing wrong.
I too wish more people would voice their opinions on this.... but, I will not hold out much hope.
I too wish more people would voice their opinions on this.... but, I will not hold out much hope.
Canuckus Deploracus wrote:
Thanks... br As a foreigner I never offer opinions... (show quote)
Feb 8, 2019 09:49:56 #
Pennylynn wrote:
I am so very sorry for the lag in responding to yo... (show quote)
Don't be sorry. Its good you're not glued to a computer.
Superficially, believing is easy. We can all pretend to others with our words and actions.
Would you call it discipline? We have to discipline ourselves - the battle begins in our mind. It doesn't matter what we do or say if our thoughts are sinful. Its a battle every single day.
We have to remember that this life is so short compared to the hereafter. If we keep our focus on God rather than the world that helps us to win each battle.
"I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus." -Phil 3:14
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