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Trump Thinks He’s ‘Winning’ The Shutdown As Human Suffering Grows
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Jan 12, 2019 09:43:42   #
snowbear37 Loc: MA.
 
markc wrote:
I agree and here are some thought from a concerned engineer:

“To recap: Iʼm a licensed structural and civil engineer with a MS in structural engineering from the top program in the nation and over a decade of experience on high- performance projects, and particularly of cleaning up design disasters where the factors werenʼt properly accounted for, and Iʼm an adjunct professor of structural analysis and design at UH-Downtown. I have previously been deposed as an expert witness in matters regarding proper construction of walls and the various factors associated therein, and my testimony has passed Daubert.
Am I a wall expert? I am. I am literally a court-accepted expert on walls.
Structurally and civil engineering-wise, the border wall is not a feasible project. Trump did not hire engineers to design the thing. He solicited bids from contractors, not engineers. This means itʼs not been designed by professionals. Itʼs a disaster of numerous types waiting to happen.
What disasters?
Off the top of my head...
1) It will mess with our ability to drain land in flash flooding. Anything impeding the ability of water to get where it needs to go (doesnʼt matter if there are holes in the wall or whatever) is going to dramatically increase the risk of flooding.
2) Messes with all kind of stuff ecologically. For all other projects, we have to do an Environmental Site Assessment, which is arduous. Theyʼre either planning to circumvent all this, or they havenʼt accounted for it yet, because thatʼs part of the design process, and this thing hasnʼt been designed. 3) The prototypes they came up with are nearly impossible to build or donʼt actually do the job. This article explains more:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/mobile.engineering.com/amp /17599.html
And so on.
The estimates provided for the cost are arrived at unreasonably. You can look for yourself at the two-year-old estimate that you see everyone citing.
http://fronterasdesk.org/sites/default/files/field/docs/2016/0 7/Bernstein-%20The%20Trump%20Wall.pdf
It does not account for rework, complexities beyond the prototype design, factors to prevent flood and environmental hazard creation, engineering redesign... Itʼs going to be higher than $50bn. The contractors will hit the government with near CONSTANT change orders. “Cost overrun” will be the name of the game. It will not be completed in Trumpʼs lifetime.
Iʼm a structural forensicist, which means Iʼm called in when things go wrong. This is a project that WILL go wrong. When projects go wrong, the original estimates are just *obliterated*. And when that happens, good luck getting it fixed, because there arenʼt that many forensicists out there to right the ship, particularly not that are willing to work on a border wall project— a large quotient of us are immigrants, and besides, we canʼt afford to bid on jobs that are this political. Weʼre small firms, and weʼre already busy, and we donʼt gamble our reputations on political footballs. So youʼd end up with a revolving door of contractors making a giant, uncoordinated muddle of things, and itʼd generally be a mess. Good money after bad. The GAO agrees with me.
And it wonʼt be effective. I could, right now, purchase a 32 foot extension ladder and weld a cheap custom saddle for the top of the proposed wall so that I can get over it. I donʼt know who they talked to about the wall design and its efficacy, but it sure as heck wasnʼt anybody with any engineering imagination.
Another thing: we are not far from the day where inexpensive drones will be able to pick up and carry someone. This will happen in the next ten years, and itʼs folly to think that the coyotes who ferry people over the border wonʼt purchase or create them. Theyʼre low enough, quiet enough, and small enough to quickly zip people over any wall we could build undetected with our current monitoring setup.
Letʼs have border security, by all means, but letʼs be smart about it. This is not smart. Itʼs not effective. Itʼs NOT cheap. The returns will be diminishing as technology advances, too. This is a ridiculous idea that will never be successfully executed and, as such, would be a monumental waste of money.”
I agree and here are some thought from a concerned... (show quote)


I can see where a wall composed of separate steel upright columns (pointed at the top) that you can see through would hold back millions of gallons of water that we usually get in the desert regularly.

Are you carrying your 32 foot ladder from Guatemala? Will you be able to "zip" over the wall with small children or babies?

Do you think it's more expensive that the billions of dollars spent in supporting illegal aliens?

We are not far from the day when cars will be able to fly over the wall, so we should just do nothing until that happens?

Environmental concerns have been a standard excuse for not accomplishing some intelligent and well planned projects to help the American people for years.

The problems you cite may be part of the considerations of building a wall, but they are neither unsolvable nor reason enough not to erect a barrier.

| Reply
Jan 12, 2019 10:11:04   #
amadjuster Loc: Texas Panhandle
 
Bad Bob wrote:
https://www.politicususa.com/2019/01/11/trump-winning-shutdown.html


Millions of people and their families are suffering because they aren’t getting paid during the government shutdown, but Trump refuses to open government because he thinks that he is winning.
Politico reported:
On the 20th day of the shutdown, the GOP group tried to jump start bipartisan talks before Trump declares a national emergency to get his wall. But the president rejected their idea to allow congressional committees to sort out his border wall request while the government reopened, deeming the idea likely to leave him with nothing to show for the shutdown.

Vice President Mike Pence and acting Chief of Staff Mick Mulvaney had been consulting with senators about the matter on Thursday. Pence and Mulvaney took the idea to the president, who shot it down, according to multiple people directly involved in the talks. While the congressional committees could still take up Trump’s border wall plan, the president opposes the idea of opening the government before serious wall negotiations have begun, the people said. He told Senate Republicans he believes he is winning the fight and will not sign any stopgap bills at this point.
https://www.politicususa.com/2019/01/11/trump-winn... (show quote)


What happens if this drags on long enough and people find out the government functions just fine without 800,000 govt. employees? Does that mean we didn’t need them in the first place?

| Reply
Jan 12, 2019 10:19:25   #
jimpack123 Loc: wisconsin
 
[quote=proud republican]These people are going to get paid....But we are talking about something that is more important....We are talking about people that losing their loved once.......Democrats should stop playing with people' lives and give him money for Border Security that we really need...Or maybe Pelosi and Schumer SHOULD VISIT THE bORDER LIKE President trump did and see for themselves what is going on over there...[/quote
Trump had two years of GOP control of the senate and Congress why didn't he seize upon then oh wait there was 25 billion for border security shortly after he took office but it was tied to the dreamers. so don't scream about the Democrats when this is all on Trump

| Reply
Jan 12, 2019 10:27:31   #
padremike Loc: Phenix City, Al
 
markc wrote:
I agree and here are some thought from a concerned engineer:

“To recap: Iʼm a licensed structural and civil engineer with a MS in structural engineering from the top program in the nation and over a decade of experience on high- performance projects, and particularly of cleaning up design disasters where the factors werenʼt properly accounted for, and Iʼm an adjunct professor of structural analysis and design at UH-Downtown. I have previously been deposed as an expert witness in matters regarding proper construction of walls and the various factors associated therein, and my testimony has passed Daubert.
Am I a wall expert? I am. I am literally a court-accepted expert on walls.
Structurally and civil engineering-wise, the border wall is not a feasible project. Trump did not hire engineers to design the thing. He solicited bids from contractors, not engineers. This means itʼs not been designed by professionals. Itʼs a disaster of numerous types waiting to happen.
What disasters?
Off the top of my head...
1) It will mess with our ability to drain land in flash flooding. Anything impeding the ability of water to get where it needs to go (doesnʼt matter if there are holes in the wall or whatever) is going to dramatically increase the risk of flooding.
2) Messes with all kind of stuff ecologically. For all other projects, we have to do an Environmental Site Assessment, which is arduous. Theyʼre either planning to circumvent all this, or they havenʼt accounted for it yet, because thatʼs part of the design process, and this thing hasnʼt been designed. 3) The prototypes they came up with are nearly impossible to build or donʼt actually do the job. This article explains more:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/mobile.engineering.com/amp /17599.html
And so on.
The estimates provided for the cost are arrived at unreasonably. You can look for yourself at the two-year-old estimate that you see everyone citing.
http://fronterasdesk.org/sites/default/files/field/docs/2016/0 7/Bernstein-%20The%20Trump%20Wall.pdf
It does not account for rework, complexities beyond the prototype design, factors to prevent flood and environmental hazard creation, engineering redesign... Itʼs going to be higher than $50bn. The contractors will hit the government with near CONSTANT change orders. “Cost overrun” will be the name of the game. It will not be completed in Trumpʼs lifetime.
Iʼm a structural forensicist, which means Iʼm called in when things go wrong. This is a project that WILL go wrong. When projects go wrong, the original estimates are just *obliterated*. And when that happens, good luck getting it fixed, because there arenʼt that many forensicists out there to right the ship, particularly not that are willing to work on a border wall project— a large quotient of us are immigrants, and besides, we canʼt afford to bid on jobs that are this political. Weʼre small firms, and weʼre already busy, and we donʼt gamble our reputations on political footballs. So youʼd end up with a revolving door of contractors making a giant, uncoordinated muddle of things, and itʼd generally be a mess. Good money after bad. The GAO agrees with me.
And it wonʼt be effective. I could, right now, purchase a 32 foot extension ladder and weld a cheap custom saddle for the top of the proposed wall so that I can get over it. I donʼt know who they talked to about the wall design and its efficacy, but it sure as heck wasnʼt anybody with any engineering imagination.
Another thing: we are not far from the day where inexpensive drones will be able to pick up and carry someone. This will happen in the next ten years, and itʼs folly to think that the coyotes who ferry people over the border wonʼt purchase or create them. Theyʼre low enough, quiet enough, and small enough to quickly zip people over any wall we could build undetected with our current monitoring setup.
Letʼs have border security, by all means, but letʼs be smart about it. This is not smart. Itʼs not effective. Itʼs NOT cheap. The returns will be diminishing as technology advances, too. This is a ridiculous idea that will never be successfully executed and, as such, would be a monumental waste of money.”
I agree and here are some thought from a concerned... (show quote)


Sorry but you sound like a government bureaucratic engineer -welding a saddle on a 32 foot ladder and a drone that will pick up an invader. We want to stop them before they enter not have to house and feed them and give a trial afterwards. And if a caravan crosses the border at the same time how many drones......you get the point. Then before anything else we must first file an impact statements knowing that the greatest impact is 20+ million illegal aliens growing by 2000 every day.

| Reply
Jan 12, 2019 10:35:06   #
jimpack123 Loc: wisconsin
 
snowbear37 wrote:
I can see where a wall composed of separate steel upright columns (pointed at the top) that you can see through would hold back millions of gallons of water that we usually get in the desert regularly.

Are you carrying your 32 foot ladder from Guatemala? Will you be able to "zip" over the wall with small children or babies?

Do you think it's more expensive that the billions of dollars spent in supporting illegal aliens?

We are not far from the day when cars will be able to fly over the wall, so we should just do nothing until that happens?

Environmental concerns have been a standard excuse for not accomplishing some intelligent and well planned projects to help the American people for years.

The problems you cite may be part of the considerations of building a wall, but they are neither unsolvable nor reason enough not to erect a barrier.
I can see where a wall composed of separate steel ... (show quote)


then solve the problem before you build it duh

| Reply
Jan 12, 2019 11:20:53   #
snowbear37 Loc: MA.
 
jimpack123 wrote:
then solve the problem before you build it duh


Duh. I guess you missed the point.

| Reply
Jan 12, 2019 11:30:28   #
jimpack123 Loc: wisconsin
 
snowbear37 wrote:
Duh. I guess you missed the point.


No I was talking about Trump and the GOP was being sarcastic lol

| Reply
Jan 12, 2019 11:38:06   #
Iamdjchrys Loc: Decatur, Texas
 
snowbear37 wrote:
B,S. You call a delay in paychecks "human suffering"? How about the people that have lost loved ones because of illegal aliens disregard for our laws? THAT'S human suffering! These people won't EVER get their loved ones back. What's with "millions of people and their families" when it's about 800,000 (many of whom agree with Trump)?

Are you going for the CNN clone award?


800,000 employed, most supporting families. Living paycheck to paycheck. And very few agree with Trump, despite his boasting. A very few people have lost loved ones due to undocumented immigrants, far fewer, pro rata, than violent crimes committed by citizens. Try talking to the people who are making hard decisions as to whether to buy needed medications, food, or pay rent/mortgage. Explain to their children why they're having cereal for dinner, or going without. Go to one of their garage sales, trying to scrape up enough money to cover at least half of this month's necessities. You speak of a delay in paychecks like it's a walk in the park and getting dogshit on your shoe. You've obviously never experienced a crisis like this personally. I have. Try getting your news from sources other than Breitbart and Fox (Trump) News. Oops, even Fox has become critical of his shenanigans. Face it, Trump has made a mockery of the presidency and American values.

| Reply
Jan 12, 2019 11:44:24   #
Bad Bob Loc: Virginia
 
Iamdjchrys wrote:
800,000 employed, most supporting families. Living paycheck to paycheck. And very few agree with Trump, despite his boasting. A very few people have lost loved ones due to undocumented immigrants, far fewer, pro rata, than violent crimes committed by citizens. Try getting your news from sources other than Breitbart and Fox (Trump) News. Oops, even Fox has become critical of his shenanigans. Face it, Trump has made a mockery of the presidency and American values.



| Reply
Jan 12, 2019 11:49:51   #
Iamdjchrys Loc: Decatur, Texas
 
Bad Bob wrote:


I did some editing to the original post, BUT THANKS

| Reply
Jan 12, 2019 11:51:25   #
snowbear37 Loc: MA.
 
Iamdjchrys wrote:
800,000 employed, most supporting families. Living paycheck to paycheck. And very few agree with Trump, despite his boasting. A very few people have lost loved ones due to undocumented immigrants, far fewer, pro rata, than violent crimes committed by citizens. Try getting your news from sources other than Breitbart and Fox (Trump) News. Oops, even Fox has become critical of his shenanigans. Face it, Trump has made a mockery of the presidency and American values.


Tell it to the families of those that lost relatives. Keep drinking the Kool-Aid and parroting MSM talking points, face it, you have a severe case of TDS. Millions of people live paycheck to paycheck (including me) so don't make it sound like these government employees are "special". And their paychecks are only delayed, not lost, like the people that are never coming back even after this debate about the wall is settled.

| Reply
Jan 12, 2019 12:01:22   #
jimpack123 Loc: wisconsin
 
snowbear37 wrote:
Tell it to the families of those that lost relatives. Keep drinking the Kool-Aid and parroting MSM talking points, face it, you have a severe case of TDS. Millions of people live paycheck to paycheck (including me) so don't make it sound like these government employees are "special". And their paychecks are only delayed, not lost, like the people that are never coming back even after this debate about the wall is settled.


how about the HUD fiasco

| Reply
Jan 12, 2019 12:02:02   #
jimpack123 Loc: wisconsin
 
snowbear37 wrote:
Tell it to the families of those that lost relatives. Keep drinking the Kool-Aid and parroting MSM talking points, face it, you have a severe case of TDS. Millions of people live paycheck to paycheck (including me) so don't make it sound like these government employees are "special". And their paychecks are only delayed, not lost, like the people that are never coming back even after this debate about the wall is settled.


perhaps the secret service should call in sick to

| Reply
Jan 12, 2019 12:08:22   #
Iamdjchrys Loc: Decatur, Texas
 
snowbear37 wrote:
Tell it to the families of those that lost relatives. Keep drinking the Kool-Aid and parroting MSM talking points, face it, you have a severe case of TDS. Millions of people live paycheck to paycheck (including me) so don't make it sound like these government employees are "special". And their paychecks are only delayed, not lost, like the people that are never coming back even after this debate about the wall is settled.


Delayed for how long? Are you the sole breadwinner for your household" For the record, I think for myself, don't drink the Kool-Aid and I don't subscribe to MSM. You're living, literally, paycheck to paycheck? What's your back-up plan in the event that you are unable to work, or your union goes on strike, or your income stops for an indeterminate amount of time for any reason? Because I HAVE been the sole breadwinner of a family with one, then two children. No matter how creatively we carved up the money, we lived paycheck to paycheck. And the thought of that income not flowing struck fear into my heart. We didn't have the luxury of relatives to bail us out. It was just me bearing the load. And I guarantee that our monthly expenditures wouldn't take kindly to be put on the back burner. We would, more likely than not, be out on our butts after a couple of months and our credit ruined even if we were renters. Years, decades even, of sound financial decisions down the drain. Try walking in their shoes before you demean.

| Reply
Jan 12, 2019 12:08:41   #
Bad Bob Loc: Virginia
 
jimpack123 wrote:
perhaps the secret service should call in sick to



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