Boo_Boo Loc: Jellystone

Okay, I think I have a handle on the war between Catholics and Protestants... but, I am tossing this out for a sanity check.

The animosity comes from basic human nature when dealing with fundamental disagreement over eternal truths. Some, or at least those posting on OPP, Protestants think Roman Catholics teach a works-gospel that cannot save, while Roman Catholics think Protestants teach easy-believism that requires nothing more than an emotional outburst brought on by manipulative preaching. Protestants accuse Catholics of worshiping Mary, and Catholics think Protestants are apparently too dull to understand the distinctions Rome has made in this regard.

And central to all of it is authority. When it comes down to deciding a theological issue about defined Catholic dogma, there is no discussion, because once Rome speaks, it is settled. This is a problem when trying to debate a Roman Catholic – reason and Scripture are not the Catholic’s final authority; they can always retreat into the “safe zone” of Roman Catholic authority.

Ergo it boils down to “private interpretation” of Scripture against the "official teachings of the Roman Catholic Church." Protestants are "by the New Testament" with heavy reliance on the writings of Saul/Paul. And a personal understanding that is conveyed from Jesus/G*d directly to the believer. Catholics rely on the Catholic Church, the Pope, to know the New Testament and tell the people what it all means.

I am positive that there are other satellites orbiting around both faiths, but at the core... do I understand the issues? Please educate me.... I am not asking anyone to "defend" their religion, I simply have a need to understand the divide. Can polish or correct.... and perhaps I have it all wrong, jump in and educate me.

pafret Loc: Northeast

Almost, there are a few differences such as:

And central to all of it is authority. When it comes down to deciding a theological issue about defined Catholic dogma, there is no discussion, because once Rome speaks, it is settled. This is a problem when trying to debate a Roman Catholic – reason and Scripture are not the Catholic’s final authority; they can always retreat into the “safe zone” of Roman Catholic authority.

When Rome speaks it is with the authority and guidance of tradition, the Magisterium and the Pope's infallibility, on matters of faith and morals, when he speaks ex cathedra (from the Chair of Peter). There is no "Rome", which is the final arbiter in all matters. The quote below covers the authority succinctly:

"Ex cathedra is a Latin phrase which means "from the chair." It refers to binding and infallible papal teachings which are promulgated by the pope when he officially teaches in his capacity of the universal shepherd of the Church a doctrine on a matter of faith or morals and addresses it to the entire world. The concept derives from Jesus.

In Matthew 23: 2-3 Jesus spoke of the authority of the Old Testament magisterium saying, "The scribes and the Pharisees have taken their seat on the chair [Gk. cathedras] of Moses. Therefore, do and observe whatsoever they tell you, but do not follow their example. For they preach what they do not practice." Since Jesus recognized the authority of the Old Testament magisterium when it spoke ex cathedra (with the authority of Moses),we recognize that the New Testament magisterium of the Church, which speaks with the authority not of Moses but of Jesus Christ himself (Mt 10:40, 16:18-19, 18:18; Lk 10:16; 2 Cor 5:18-20), possesses a binding, infallible teaching office which is guaranteed by Christ (Mt 28:20; Jn 14:16, 26, 16:13)."

The Roman Catholic Church bases all of its infallible teachings on sacred tradition and sacred scripture. ... A teaching of ordinary and universal magisterium is a teaching of which all bishops (including the Pope) universally agree on and is also considered infallible. So rather than not being rational, Catholicism is extremely rational and not arbitrary or capricious despite the many Popes who were unsavory at best and evil in their actions.

The incessant drumbeat about how many priests have turned out to be perverts does not define the Church just as the ill advised attempts at covering up such behavior reflect nothing more than man's concupiscent nature and his desire to avoid scandal or exposure.

There are many other issues besides Solo Scritura and the real presence of God in the transubstantiation. The Catholic view is that we have the Apostolic Succession and we represent the true church and religion. All these Johnny-come-latelies are heretics. It requires Bishops to consecrate priests and outside of the Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholic Church, there is no valid Bishopric and hence no Apostolic succession. Without this succession the other churches are deprived of access to the fount of knowledge which they proudly proclaim that simpler humans can define for themselves what the religion is about.

One would have to be a Historian, a Master of ancient languages such as Hebrew, Aramaic, Greek, Latin and others as well as being an Archaeologist skilled in Middle Eastern Culture before he would be qualified to give definitive interpretations of those scriptures Or he can become a Catholic and avail himself of the knowledge of all those disciplines. It is presented to him at each Sunday Mass.

Rose42

Some of it is correct.

Christians - protestants - don't go it alone. The scholars who have translated the bible are not ignorant of history or the ancient languages but well versed in them. Christianity has its roots as far back as Catholicism claims its roots are. Catholic monks helped to preserve those texts by copying them but the Roman Catholic church never owned them.

There are some basic doctrinal differences in addition to the bible being the final authority for matters of faith. The bible lays them out for us. I am copying and pasting this because it explains it much more succinctly than I could. I won't touch on the matter of Catholicism's presumed apostolic authority or oral traditions.

1. There is only one God, and you are to serve no other gods (Exodus 20:3; Isaiah 43:10; 44:6, 8).
2. Jesus is both God and man (John 1:1, 14; 8:24; Col. 2:9; 1 John 4:1-4).
3. Jesus rose from the dead physically (John 2:19-21; 1 Cor. 15:14).
4. Salvation is by grace through faith (Rom. 5:1; Eph. 2:8-9; Gal. 3:1-2; 5:1-4).
5. The gospel is the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus according to the scriptures (1 Cor. 15:1-4; Gal. 1:8-9).
6. God is a Trinity (Matt. 28:19; 1 Cor. 12:4-6; 2 Cor. 13:14).
7. Jesus was born of the virgin Mary (Matt. 1:25).

So, someone who is a true Christian will believe these things and not violate them. Roman Catholicism violates two of them (#1 and #4). First of all, by its practice of promoting Mary (and the Saints) to the level of God-like capabilities, they break the commandment to have no other gods before the true and living God. In Roman Catholicism, they say that Mary is the mediatrix (Catechism of the Catholic Church paragraph 969); Mary made atonement for the sins of man (Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, page 213); Mary is the subject of preaching and worship (Vatican Council II, p. 420); etc.

Also, Catholicism violates the biblical doctrine of salvation by grace through faith alone. Paul the Apostle, for example, tells us in Romans 4:5, "But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness." But Roman Catholicism denies that and says, " . . . so that all men may attain salvation through faith, Baptism and the observance of the Commandments," (CCC, par 2068). Also, consider this:

"If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema" (Council of Trent, Canons on Justification, Canon 9).

So, even though Roman Catholicism claims to be Christian and that it is the one true church, it violates the essentials of the Christian faith. It goes beyond what is written in God's word (1 Cor. 4:6). It denies the sole and true sovereignty of the living God by promoting prayer to and the worship of Mary. Also, it denies justification by faith alone in Christ alone. It is not a Christian church.

https://carm.org/is-catholicism-christian

bahmer

That seems to lay it out fairly well for me as well.

Boo_Boo Loc: Jellystone

Thank you, well stated and informative. Thank you.

Boo_Boo Loc: Jellystone

Thank you... with your help, many of the pieces are coming together.

Peewee Loc: San Antonio, TX

One more point if I may. In the last days' Protestants believe that Catholics considering themselves to be the one true infallible church
will try and bring all religions under its umbrella. Protestants and Jews will resist and be slain. We consider the Pope to be the false prophet in Revelations. The Vatican has never rescinded its edict to make Protestants return to the mother church or be slain.

4430 Loc: Little Egypt ** Southern Illinory

I have Catholic friends and associate with them and other Catholics and have no problem with them as they can believe like they do and I believe like I do and all's well !

Catholics aren't along in believing they are the only Church and only way to God and heaven as there are some Protestant Churches that say that theirs is the only true Church and I say to them well what ever swings your swing !

Having a personal relationship with Christ is the only way who has repented and turn from their sins and be Baptized into Christs death burial and resurrection it's really quite simple !

Rose42

There is a movement - the name escapes me - where some protestants and Catholics are trying to unify. The pope has said atheists can do good and get to heaven amd there is an outreach to Islam for religious harmony.

One thing I've been thinking a lot about lately is "many are called but few are chosen". With over 1 billion Catholics in the world and close to 1 billion protestants and a total of approximately 7.5 billion people what is the few? I really doubt 2 billion people will be chosen but I would love to be wrong.

Boo_Boo Loc: Jellystone

Interesting.... when I look out at the Universe, I do not think it is empty.... there has to be many world with many creations. I do not see any place in our writings (Jewish) that say we are the only creations.... and when I think of our Father, I do not see that there are limitations..... He created everything ..... and if more space is needed for those who believe.... He could "speak" it into reality. There has been billions of souls who have been born and have died... how many do you think believed and followed the Law as given to Moses? Or even the Laws of Saul... ? And going back before Moses.... how about the laws given by Noah? Is it possible that those souls will only just stay dead and Jesus only came for those he could recruit from "hell" while after he was murdered? I do not have an answer for these questions.... so, don't be offended... I am just asking.

bahmer

We don't know what the new heavens and the new earth will be like either. They could be many times larger than they are now and they could be smaller depending on how many the Lord has called and saved over the years. Could you imagine an earth say a thousand times larger than the present earth is? How about ten thousand times larger to accommodate all that the Lord has and is going to be saved. Or then again it could be smaller as well. The Bible tells that this earth is going to be destroyed and that there will be a new heavens and a new earth and we can only imagine what that will be like. I guess that we will have to be patient won't we?

Rose42

I'm not offended. We can't have any idea how many will be there- interesting questions. I don't know if space as we think of it will be a factor. He gave all the stars names so there could be others out there too. Can you imagine knowing each star's name?

How can we describe God? We know what the bible tells us about Him but how can we begin to imagine what He's really like?

TexaCan Loc: Homeward Bound!

There was a man in church that by using scripture, he claimed that the new Jerusalem would be 1,500 miles high and the same wide! A big square! That wouldn't fit on this earth! He was an extremely intelligent man and had been a top engineer at Shell! I have no doubt that whatever the new universe and heavens and our new world looks like, we will be pleasantly surprised. I hope the Lord gives me a few more inches in height!

bahmer

I am sure that the new heavens and the new earth will beyond our wildest imagination and I am also sure that it will be made to order and will have all of our needs taken in to account as well. Maranatha.

Peewee Loc: San Antonio, TX

Well, what can I tell you? Adam and Eve had one requirement from God. They failed. Moses was given the Ten Commandments and the Torah and the Hebrews failed. Then they were allowed a King so they could be like the other nations and the Kings failed. Then He sent Jesus as the perfect sacrifice once and for all and He was crucified.

It's all a master plan of God to have children and a family of true believers. It a way to separate the sheep from the goats and the wheat from the chaff.

Maybe the rabbis are keeping the truth from you? Kaduri figured it out. So can you. And I have never heard of an alien race or other beings having been found outside of good and fallen angels, I think you know more about the subject than you are letting on.

You know about the priest laying hands on the scapegoat and the red thread and the temple curtain being rent when Jesus died on the cross. 40 years later the temple was destroyed and the Jews scattered until 1948. You know about the scriptures in Psalms and Isaiah that describe Jesus perfectly, you know if you study Daniels timeline it leads to the time of Jesus's birth. You know that Bethlehem is where the temple sheep were raised and it's where Jesus was born. You just don't want to believe it. Because there is plenty of proof and prophecy that confirms it.

There are plenty of Catholics and Jews who follow Jesus and many who follow the Pope and Rabbis. We can't all be right. But it's always our responsibility to figure out our salvation. That's my two cents. Christians are not asked to spread the good news, we are commanded to do so and that's why we irritate people so much. Animal sacrifice worked to atone for sin as long as the red thread turned white. It stopped changing colors after Christ was crucified.

None of us can fully understand God, but we can always do more to understand Him better. God can certainly have a son if He wants one. He just can't lie or sin because He is Holy, He is the standard we can't hope to attain. There had to be a way to bridge this gap. The only thing that fits is Jesus. Jesus is the Messiah. Even His name means salvation.