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Is anyone familiar with the Didache?
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Dec 19, 2018 00:30:30   #
Boo_Boo Loc: Jellystone
 
You will not find these in the New Testament, but I was wondering if there are any bible scholars that would be interested in discussing these writings. The Didache are Early Christian Writings and follow the bible, but were not considered for canon during the Council of Nicaea. You may already know this, but after this council a second council was formed, the Council of Trent (1545-63) (Rabbis were not invited) was established to define the Old Testament canon and many books were excluded by thee Protestant Reformers, including Tobit, Judith, Sirach, Wisdom, the Maccabees, and others. So, some historical "books" have never been made available to most people. And most people think the bible, as approved, are the only "legal or recognized" books. Do not misunderstand me.... I am not saying that any of these unpublished (many are held at the Vatican) contain any startling differences, they are just a different view of what happened in history. Look at it this way, if you are standing on a street you may hear a car crash, but you can not see the crash or why it happened. But, had you been standing on the roof, you may have seen how the crash would happen and the crash. Some of them are curious... and that is putting it mildly, but interesting.

Just throwing out a topic. If no one is interested... that is fine.

Reply
Dec 19, 2018 07:26:26   #
bylm1-Bernie
 
Pennylynn wrote:
You will not find these in the New Testament, but I was wondering if there are any bible scholars that would be interested in discussing these writings. The Didache are Early Christian Writings and follow the bible, but were not considered for canon during the Council of Nicaea. You may already know this, but after this council a second council was formed, the Council of Trent (1545-63) (Rabbis were not invited) was established to define the Old Testament canon and many books were excluded by thee Protestant Reformers, including Tobit, Judith, Sirach, Wisdom, the Maccabees, and others. So, some historical "books" have never been made available to most people. And most people think the bible, as approved, are the only "legal or recognized" books. Do not misunderstand me.... I am not saying that any of these unpublished (many are held at the Vatican) contain any startling differences, they are just a different view of what happened in history. Look at it this way, if you are standing on a street you may hear a car crash, but you can not see the crash or why it happened. But, had you been standing on the roof, you may have seen how the crash would happen and the crash. Some of them are curious... and that is putting it mildly, but interesting.

Just throwing out a topic. If no one is interested... that is fine.
You will not find these in the New Testament, but ... (show quote)



This isn't an area that I am familiar with, Penny, but it sounds as if it would be interesting to look into further. I feel that a frequent poster on OPP, Doc110, might be one who could shed some light on it. He often talks of Biblical subjects and has experience in both Protestant and Roman Church matters. Probably way to deep for me but I'll follow it if there is any interest. Thanks for posting.

Reply
Dec 19, 2018 08:03:37   #
pafret Loc: Northeast
 
Pennylynn wrote:
You will not find these in the New Testament, but I was wondering if there are any bible scholars that would be interested in discussing these writings. The Didache are Early Christian Writings and follow the bible, but were not considered for canon during the Council of Nicaea. You may already know this, but after this council a second council was formed, the Council of Trent (1545-63) (Rabbis were not invited) was established to define the Old Testament canon and many books were excluded by thee Protestant Reformers, including Tobit, Judith, Sirach, Wisdom, the Maccabees, and others. So, some historical "books" have never been made available to most people. And most people think the bible, as approved, are the only "legal or recognized" books. Do not misunderstand me.... I am not saying that any of these unpublished (many are held at the Vatican) contain any startling differences, they are just a different view of what happened in history. Look at it this way, if you are standing on a street you may hear a car crash, but you can not see the crash or why it happened. But, had you been standing on the roof, you may have seen how the crash would happen and the crash. Some of them are curious... and that is putting it mildly, but interesting.

Just throwing out a topic. If no one is interested... that is fine.
You will not find these in the New Testament, but ... (show quote)


While my "New Catholic Bible" circa 1960 contains all of the books you listed, the Didache seems to be a separate document. From what I gathered it was referenced by some of the early church fathers but was declared non-canonical. I bought a kindle version of the the Didache but I am certainly not a biblical scholar. I would be interestd in reading your thoughts.

Reply
 
 
Dec 19, 2018 08:48:31   #
Rose42
 
The didache is not an inspired work. The reason the books you mention were not included in the bible is because they were not recognized as inspired works either and the Catholic church added them in response to the Reformation. The council of Trent was also in response to the Reformation.

If you have questions as to why there are 66 books in the bible one good resource is here -
https://answersingenesis.org/the-word-of-god/why-66-books/


Below is a good synopsis of the didache. The didache itself is in the public domain and free for anyone to read. Here is one place -
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/didache.html


The word Didache comes from the Greek word related to doctrine, didactic, teaching, etc. The Didache is a controversial instruction book, the date of writing of which has been much debated. Currently, the Didache, a non-canonical book, is believed to have been written between A.D. 70 and A.D. 100. It is claimed to be the work of the twelve Apostles. The Greek “Apostolic Constitutions” has many references to the Didache, with additional Scriptures added. The Didache seems to have been a sort of church manual for primitive Christians, probably in rural areas dependent mostly on itinerant ministers. It was revised over time into varying forms at various places.

Several writings and lists from the beginning of the fourth century refer to a writing known as the “Teaching” or “Teachings” of the Apostles. However, it is not proved that this is in reference to the Didache. The present version of the ancient Didache is a reliable guide to help understand the conduct code of the early Christian community.

The Didache deals with the roads to life and death. According to the Didache, the path of life teaches to love only one God, love your neighbor as yourself, and a form of what we now know as the Golden Rule. The teachings continue to follow the Ten Commandments. Other chapters deal with seeing God as all-powerful, seeking Him day and night, and not doubting whether His Word is true, keeping the commandments of God, confessing our sins and coming into prayer with a clear conscience. This is seen as the path of life.

According to the Didache, the road to death is evil and is taken by those who persecute the good, not knowing the reward of righteousness. What is found on the path to death in the Didache is listed in Revelation 22:15. Again we are reminded of false teachers, and it is stressed that the teachings should be of the true gospel. Tempting and disputing any prophet who is speaking in the Spirit shall not be forgiven, says the Didache. Any prophet who is an approved minister but does not teach others shall face God’s judgment. The creation of man will end in a fiery trial of proof, and many shall perish. The sign of Jesus Christ’s appearing will come, then the sound of the Trumpet, and then the resurrection of the dead. “Then shall the world behold the Lord coming on the clouds of Heaven.”
https://www.gotquestions.org/didache.html

Reply
Dec 19, 2018 08:55:07   #
Peewee Loc: San Antonio, TX
 
Pennylynn wrote:
You will not find these in the New Testament, but I was wondering if there are any bible scholars that would be interested in discussing these writings. The Didache are Early Christian Writings and follow the bible, but were not considered for canon during the Council of Nicaea. You may already know this, but after this council a second council was formed, the Council of Trent (1545-63) (Rabbis were not invited) was established to define the Old Testament canon and many books were excluded by thee Protestant Reformers, including Tobit, Judith, Sirach, Wisdom, the Maccabees, and others. So, some historical "books" have never been made available to most people. And most people think the bible, as approved, are the only "legal or recognized" books. Do not misunderstand me.... I am not saying that any of these unpublished (many are held at the Vatican) contain any startling differences, they are just a different view of what happened in history. Look at it this way, if you are standing on a street you may hear a car crash, but you can not see the crash or why it happened. But, had you been standing on the roof, you may have seen how the crash would happen and the crash. Some of them are curious... and that is putting it mildly, but interesting.

Just throwing out a topic. If no one is interested... that is fine.
You will not find these in the New Testament, but ... (show quote)


Thanks, Penny, I will check them out. Thought I had read most all the extra conical books. That was the perfect Christmas gift. I know I've read Tobit, Maccabees, and Judith. Not sure about the others. Have you read Gad the Seer and Nathan the Prophet? Very interesting, both were non-Hebrews who served David. Below are two short videos by the man who wrote the English translation of both. I also included one of Mt. Sinai, which has some nice music and drone footage. The Saudi Prince MBS has a megacity he plans to build in the same area, in the near future. Spoiler alert, Gad's words sound a lot like Christian theology but there were no Christians when Gad was alive. If there is a Hebrew version maybe you can compare the two and see if they say the same thing. Hope you enjoy them all.

https://youtu.be/eI34BVEXhJc (Mt. Sinai)
https://youtu.be/_2HxWM27ik8 (Nathan)
https://youtu.be/k9I7vrChC84 (Gad)

Reply
Dec 19, 2018 10:41:18   #
Boo_Boo Loc: Jellystone
 
So, with this rather long copy/paste..... what do you think of the Didache? Written by the Apostles or are they forgeries? The scroll is very short and limited, it does not have a date and it is difficult to determine by the language if it could have been written by the 12. As you read down the, what can only be described as a list, I do not see how they differ significantly from the longer text versions. The "commandments" seem to be much more specific than what we find in the Torah.... for example, "Thou shalt do no murder; thou shalt not commit adultery"; thou shalt not commit sodomy; thou shalt not commit fornication; thou shalt not steal; thou shalt not use magic; thou shalt not use philtres; thou shalt not procure abortion, nor commit infanticide; "thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's goods." (if you are unfamiliar with the term philtres...as I was and had to look it up, it is love potions). This is from Saint Peter... and it seems to address some of the concerns we now see in modern times. One quote stands out, and perhaps is the reason it is at the beginning of his list..."Now, the teaching of these words is this: "Bless those that curse you, and pray for your enemies, and fast for those that persecute you. For what credit is it to you if you love those that love you? Do not even the heathen do the same?" But, for your part, "love those that hate you," and you will have no enemy. This sounds very much like something my Poppa would say.


So, let us dispense with what others thought, let us talk about our own insights, our opinions. Many people spend their lives analyzing tone, diction, and they write volumes of books on subjects. But, we have intellect.... and we can come to conclusions. I care what the scholars thought, but I care more about what you and others think. My Poppa taught me many things, and the one that applies to this... we do not need to piggyback on what others have said because they may have been wrong.

Rose42 wrote:
The didache is not an inspired work. The reason the books you mention were not included in the bible is because they were not recognized as inspired works either and the Catholic church added them in response to the Reformation. The council of Trent was also in response to the Reformation.

If you have questions as to why there are 66 books in the bible one good resource is here -
https://answersingenesis.org/the-word-of-god/why-66-books/


Below is a good synopsis of the didache. The didache itself is in the public domain and free for anyone to read. Here is one place -
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/didache.html


The word Didache comes from the Greek word related to doctrine, didactic, teaching, etc. The Didache is a controversial instruction book, the date of writing of which has been much debated. Currently, the Didache, a non-canonical book, is believed to have been written between A.D. 70 and A.D. 100. It is claimed to be the work of the twelve Apostles. The Greek “Apostolic Constitutions” has many references to the Didache, with additional Scriptures added. The Didache seems to have been a sort of church manual for primitive Christians, probably in rural areas dependent mostly on itinerant ministers. It was revised over time into varying forms at various places.

Several writings and lists from the beginning of the fourth century refer to a writing known as the “Teaching” or “Teachings” of the Apostles. However, it is not proved that this is in reference to the Didache. The present version of the ancient Didache is a reliable guide to help understand the conduct code of the early Christian community.

The Didache deals with the roads to life and death. According to the Didache, the path of life teaches to love only one God, love your neighbor as yourself, and a form of what we now know as the Golden Rule. The teachings continue to follow the Ten Commandments. Other chapters deal with seeing God as all-powerful, seeking Him day and night, and not doubting whether His Word is true, keeping the commandments of God, confessing our sins and coming into prayer with a clear conscience. This is seen as the path of life.

According to the Didache, the road to death is evil and is taken by those who persecute the good, not knowing the reward of righteousness. What is found on the path to death in the Didache is listed in Revelation 22:15. Again we are reminded of false teachers, and it is stressed that the teachings should be of the true gospel. Tempting and disputing any prophet who is speaking in the Spirit shall not be forgiven, says the Didache. Any prophet who is an approved minister but does not teach others shall face God’s judgment. The creation of man will end in a fiery trial of proof, and many shall perish. The sign of Jesus Christ’s appearing will come, then the sound of the Trumpet, and then the resurrection of the dead. “Then shall the world behold the Lord coming on the clouds of Heaven.”
https://www.gotquestions.org/didache.html
The didache is not an inspired work. The reason t... (show quote)

Reply
Dec 19, 2018 10:56:24   #
Boo_Boo Loc: Jellystone
 
Thank you Peewee, I am glad you brought this up. My Poppa's library actually has a "bible" from India which includes all the books mentioned in the videos. If you look at the teaching of Jesus, he taught the Hebrew laws.... everything he said, although said in terms that could be easily understood by everyone of his time, came directly from the books that he studied at the Temple. So, Christianity was not that different from the Judaism during that time.
The changes came after the death of the original prophets or apostles. Most of the separation came from Saul...

Interesting that you have found these books and actually took an interest.... if we still our heart and mind, we can be lead.... These books were preserved for a reason.

Peewee wrote:
Thanks, Penny, I will check them out. Thought I had read most all the extra conical books. That was the perfect Christmas gift. I know I've read Tobit, Maccabees, and Judith. Not sure about the others. Have you read Gad the Seer and Nathan the Prophet? Very interesting, both were non-Hebrews who served David. Below are two short videos by the man who wrote the English translation of both. I also included one of Mt. Sinai, which has some nice music and drone footage. The Saudi Prince MBS has a megacity he plans to build in the same area, in the near future. Spoiler alert, Gad's words sound a lot like Christian theology but there were no Christians when Gad was alive. If there is a Hebrew version maybe you can compare the two and see if they say the same thing. Hope you enjoy them all.

https://youtu.be/eI34BVEXhJc (Mt. Sinai)
https://youtu.be/_2HxWM27ik8 (Nathan)
https://youtu.be/k9I7vrChC84 (Gad)
Thanks, Penny, I will check them out. Thought I ha... (show quote)

Reply
 
 
Dec 19, 2018 11:11:42   #
Rose42
 
As an aside this brings up a question for me - do we ever have a truly original thought? Are not all of our thoughts built on our past experiences? Sometimes that keeps me awake at night. lol

As a historical document I think its valuable. Having read different English translations I doubt it was written by the apostles because of the language. It doesn't have the same "ring" to it as their other writings if that makes sense. I can't find a better word at the moment.

Do we need it for additional or supplemental instruction on our faith? From what I've read of it no we don't. Can it be useful for someone to read who doesn't have a bible to get some basic concepts? Yes I think so. Some translations are easier to read than others and for those who don't believe in God or who are agnostic this document could still be a good introduction.

Reply
Dec 19, 2018 11:13:07   #
Rose42
 
Pennylynn wrote:
So, with this rather long copy/paste..... what do you think of the Didache? Written by the Apostles or are they forgeries? The scroll is very short and limited, it does not have a date and it is difficult to determine by the language if it could have been written by the 12. As you read down the, what can only be described as a list, I do not see how they differ significantly from the longer text versions. The "commandments" seem to be much more specific than what we find in the Torah.... for example, "Thou shalt do no murder; thou shalt not commit adultery"; thou shalt not commit sodomy; thou shalt not commit fornication; thou shalt not steal; thou shalt not use magic; thou shalt not use philtres; thou shalt not procure abortion, nor commit infanticide; "thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's goods." (if you are unfamiliar with the term philtres...as I was and had to look it up, it is love potions). This is from Saint Peter... and it seems to address some of the concerns we now see in modern times. One quote stands out, and perhaps is the reason it is at the beginning of his list..."Now, the teaching of these words is this: "Bless those that curse you, and pray for your enemies, and fast for those that persecute you. For what credit is it to you if you love those that love you? Do not even the heathen do the same?" But, for your part, "love those that hate you," and you will have no enemy. This sounds very much like something my Poppa would say.


So, let us dispense with what others thought, let us talk about our own insights, our opinions. Many people spend their lives analyzing tone, diction, and they write volumes of books on subjects. But, we have intellect.... and we can come to conclusions. I care what the scholars thought, but I care more about what you and others think. My Poppa taught me many things, and the one that applies to this... we do not need to piggyback on what others have said because they may have been wrong.
So, with this rather long copy/paste..... what do ... (show quote)


As an aside this brings up a question for me - do we ever have a truly original thought? Are not all of our thoughts built on our past experiences? Sometimes that keeps me awake at night. lol

As a historical document I think its valuable. Having read different English translations I doubt it was written by the apostles because of the language. It doesn't have the same "ring" (or tone) to it as their other writings if that makes sense. I can't find a better word at the moment.

Do we need it for additional or supplemental instruction on our faith? From what I've read of it no we don't. Can it be useful for someone to read who doesn't have a bible to get some basic concepts? Yes I think so. Some translations are easier to read than others and for those who don't believe in God or who are agnostic this document could still be a good introduction.

Reply
Dec 19, 2018 11:38:07   #
Boo_Boo Loc: Jellystone
 
I think that original thought is possible and preferable, but we have been taught not to think.
To be dependent on what others have decided is fact. But, everyday we find that some of those "facts" were wrong. Let me give you an example. While working on my degree in archeology I came across a dig in Pennsylvania... according to scholars, humans did not live on the North American continent before 1200 years ago...(end of the mini ice age) they contended that human could not possibly be living in Pennsylvania 3,000 years before they were thought to have arrived in the Pacific Northwest. But, this dig, as it went further into the past showed that that assumption was off by more than 500 years. And the dig is still in progress, the newly established date may indeed be wrong.... but by how many years we are not yet certain. But, for sure clusters of humans did live and multiply near Pittsburgh more than 1200 years in the past.

I guess I am odd, because I think everything that was written can bring us insight. As I said when I created this thread.... this subject may not be of interest.... and that is okay. I think we might agree, it sure beats the heck out of bashing each other over our individual belief systems. This was just an exercise to break the revolving chain.... and perhaps to demonstrate that we can have discussions without name calling or other uncivilized words that cause unnecessary stress. Even if we disagree. The chain is broken... now we can open ourselves to discussions, even off the wall discussions without the need of finger pointing or brow beating. I now look forward to original thoughts, ideas, and yes even the more painful stuff that we would never willingly bring up in conversation.


Rose42 wrote:
As an aside this brings up a question for me - do we ever have a truly original thought? Are not all of our thoughts built on our past experiences? Sometimes that keeps me awake at night. lol

As a historical document I think its valuable. Having read different English translations I doubt it was written by the apostles because of the language. It doesn't have the same "ring" to it as their other writings if that makes sense. I can't find a better word at the moment.

Do we need it for additional or supplemental instruction on our faith? From what I've read of it no we don't. Can it be useful for someone to read who doesn't have a bible to get some basic concepts? Yes I think so. Some translations are easier to read than others and for those who don't believe in God or who are agnostic this document could still be a good introduction.
As an aside this brings up a question for me - do ... (show quote)

Reply
Dec 19, 2018 11:39:58   #
Boo_Boo Loc: Jellystone
 
Rose,

Is this a duplication of your other comment? If so, do you want me to delete it to save on any confusion?

Rose42 wrote:
As an aside this brings up a question for me - do we ever have a truly original thought? Are not all of our thoughts built on our past experiences? Sometimes that keeps me awake at night. lol

As a historical document I think its valuable. Having read different English translations I doubt it was written by the apostles because of the language. It doesn't have the same "ring" to it as their other writings if that makes sense. I can't find a better word at the moment.

Do we need it for additional or supplemental instruction on our faith? From what I've read of it no we don't. Can it be useful for someone to read who doesn't have a bible to get some basic concepts? Yes I think so. Some translations are easier to read than others and for those who don't believe in God or who are agnostic this document could still be a good introduction.
As an aside this brings up a question for me - do ... (show quote)

Reply
 
 
Dec 19, 2018 11:53:40   #
Rose42
 
Pennylynn wrote:
I think that original thought is possible and preferable, but we have been taught not to think.
To be dependent on what others have decided is fact. But, everyday we find that some of those "facts" were wrong. Let me give you an example. While working on my degree in archeology I came across a dig in Pennsylvania... according to scholars, humans did not live on the North American continent before 1200 years ago...(end of the mini ice age) they contended that human could not possibly be living in Pennsylvania 3,000 years before they were thought to have arrived in the Pacific Northwest. But, this dig, as it went further into the past showed that that assumption was off by more than 500 years. And the dig is still in progress, the newly established date may indeed be wrong.... but by how many years we are not yet certain. But, for sure clusters of humans did live and multiply near Pittsburgh more than 1200 years in the past.

I guess I am odd, because I think everything that was written can bring us insight. As I said when I created this thread.... this subject may not be of interest.... and that is okay. I think we might agree, it sure beats the heck out of bashing each other over our individual belief systems. This was just an exercise to break the revolving chain.... and perhaps to demonstrate that we can have discussions without name calling or other uncivilized words that cause unnecessary stress. Even if we disagree. The chain is broken... now we can open ourselves to discussions, even off the wall discussions without the need of finger pointing or brow beating. I now look forward to original thoughts, ideas, and yes even the more painful stuff that we would never willingly bring up in conversation.
I think that original thought is possible and pref... (show quote)


I agree we have been taught not to think and that what was written can give us insight. That's not odd. I

I do question how many thoughts we have that are original. Aren't they all built on what we know or have read - even when we read various angles on a subject we still build our thoughts on what we know do we not? What is an example of an original thought?

Reply
Dec 19, 2018 12:11:36   #
Boo_Boo Loc: Jellystone
 
I do not know how many thoughts you have that is original or anyone else may have.
I do know about myself and I find that I question almost every assumption....this may be because of how I was raised. My Poppa was my primary teacher in religion and I soon recognized that religion was at the heart of almost everything he did or said. He told me that there is only one who knows everything about everything and everyone (G*d) and all the rest of us think we know everything about everything and everyone... but we are wrong. We can only be certain of our own thoughts, and then that certainty is questionable because we hid and rearrange what we see and hear to be more palatable with our own needs and views.

Whatever example I provide as original thought you will combat it with a combination of words or thoughts written somewhere.... but, ... computers were original thought... heart transplants methods were original, skunk water was an original thought, Saturn loosing its rings.... also original thought. Every time you ask the question..."what if.." you are embarking on a personal original thought and then all you need do is follow the rabbit down the rabbit hole and either conclude that what if is or is not possible. Does it matter that the combination of words were used by someone else... no, it matters that you have not connected the dots. You are as important, if not more, than those who came before you.

Rose42 wrote:
I agree we have been taught not to think and that what was written can give us insight. That's not odd. I

I do question how many thoughts we have that are original. Aren't they all built on what we know or have read - even when we read various angles on a subject we still build our thoughts on what we know do we not? What is an example of an original thought?

Reply
Dec 19, 2018 12:22:50   #
Rose42
 
Pennylynn wrote:
I do not know how many thoughts you have that is original or anyone else may have.
I do know about myself and I find that I question almost every assumption....this may be because of how I was raised. My Poppa was my primary teacher in religion and I soon recognized that religion was at the heart of almost everything he did or said. He told me that there is only one who knows everything about everything and everyone (G*d) and all the rest of us think we know everything about everything and everyone... but we are wrong. We can only be certain of our own thoughts, and then that certainty is questionable because we hid and rearrange what we see and hear to be more palatable with our own needs and views.

Whatever example I provide as original thought you will combat it with a combination of words or thoughts written somewhere.... but, ... computers were original thought... heart transplants methods were original, skunk water was an original thought, Saturn loosing its rings.... also original thought. Every time you ask the question..."what if.." you are embarking on a personal original thought and then all you need do is follow the rabbit down the rabbit hole and either conclude that what if is or is not possible. Does it matter that the combination of words were used by someone else... no, it matters that you have not connected the dots. You are as important, if not more, than those who came before you.
I do not know how many thoughts you have that is o... (show quote)


Your Poppa was a wise man.

I'm not interested in combating, just hearing views on what is an original thought. I don't know... I will have to think some more about it. lol

Reply
Dec 19, 2018 12:28:57   #
Boo_Boo Loc: Jellystone
 
My Poppa.... all I can say is I was blessed to have him. I can not ever remember him raising his voice to anyone, in fact most would say he was a man of few words, my Mother on the other hand, was a very "passionate" person who had opinions about everything and everyone. I loved her..... but when I consider lessons learned, it was Poppa that taught me to think not just react.

Rose42 wrote:
Your Poppa was a wise man.

I'm not interested in combating, just hearing views on what is an original thought. I don't know... I will have to think some more about it. lol

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