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Why do Democrats and Republicans see Kavanaugh in such different ways?
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Oct 8, 2018 22:46:16   #
rumitoid
 
Floyd Brown wrote:
So the lynch mob that acted in you personal approval was fine.

It was a personal opinion on the what Ford felt about the actions of Kavanaugh.
It was not sent to convict him.
It was in her personal view based on her true feeling that the public should be aware of he not be worthily of being in such a trust worthy position.
There was more than enough to raise the question of reasonable doubt.
In criminal cases reasonable reason to arrest people takes every day.
Then it becomes the judicial system that judges on the matter.
Engaging complete investigation of all information on people involved with actions mentioned at the time.
From the very start the right was saying the man was innocent of any wrong doing.
Ms Ford only want to raise the issue because of personal knowledge of action by Kavanaugh.
That he may not have the true qualifications & integrity to be appointed to the Supreme Court.
There was very little effort put in to seeking the real t***h.
The key Mr. Judge who she pointed out early in her statement was never investigated with any real in what involvement he had with Kavanaugh at the time in question.
Judge wrote a book out lining what well have be just as collaborating information.
Information that is to the book buying public. even year book entries were ignored.

It is all public knowledge.
Our elected officials choose to ignore it all.

If there ever was a treasons act that was it.
It never was about being a criminal case.
It was about over looking the true qualification of a person to sit in judge of others.
To satisfy filling a position that may very well be used in judication of criminal crimes by select individuals involved in actions taking place now.

So you feel that any means to hide the t***h from coming out.
Is fair even when actions are taken to cover the facts & keep the t***h from others.

Well we have much that happens & much of what happen is hidden from the public.
Aiding in keeping t***h hidden from the public is behind much of the problems we all see today.
But if I hide or you hide the t***h from each other we will never be able to live side by side.

When it comes to personal actions that are or may be harm full to others.
Care must be taken for all information be shown.
If we hide information that covers a possible criminal act we are only abetting a criminal act.
When we allow public representatives entrusted to preserve & protect the lifes & well being of all.
The is no room for partisan politics.

There is to much wrong that comes with the might makes right way of doing things in the publics best interest.
.
So the lynch mob that acted in you personal approv... (show quote)


Wise words.

Reply
Oct 8, 2018 23:03:06   #
rumitoid
 
son of witless wrote:
Presumption of innocence is a foundation of law going back to Roman times and certainly since the Founding of the United States. With out that false accusations for political purposes would be out of control. If I accuse you of something from 30 years ago and only the two of us were there and there was no physical evidence, it is impossible for you to prove it did not happen . That is why the burden of proof is always on the accuser.

I remind you once again what happens when these rules are ignored. The Duke Lacrosse rape case and the University of Virginia rape case had innocent men smeared. If procedures had been followed and mob hysteria not whipped up by those who should have known better, these men would not have been victimized.

The circus of the Kavanaugh confirmation had all of the atmosphere of another lynch mob. Blassey Ford had the burden of proof and she failed. She had huge holes in her account of what happened.

It occurs to me that she could be telling the t***h, but with 4 witnesses that she named saying it did not happen that is enough doubt for me. Also the way the Democrats held this back until the last minute is also proof against it. That Kavanaugh could be innocent never enters your brain. Not that the fate of an innocent man means anything at all to you.

Doubt is not enough to deny Kavanaugh the nomination. Accusing anyone of this crime is more serious than you imagine. Either he is guilty or he is not. I doubt whether you have much knowledge of these things, but that doubt is enough for me to conclude I'd never v**e for your nomination to anything.
Presumption of innocence is a foundation of law go... (show quote)


I will just bring up this one point. You said, "It occurs to me that she could be telling the t***h, but with 4 witnesses that she named saying it did not happen that is enough doubt for me." That never happened. The two witnesses she used for the hearing said that they did not remember the event, which is entirely different than "saying it did not happen." Kavanaugh, either mistakenly or purposely, claimed the two said it did not happen. He was wrong or lied.

But the hearing was not about the allegations by Ford: it was a job interview. That it became almost solely about the allegation made it a circus. It should have been just a component of the hearings. The he/said she/said madness overshadowed Kavanaugh's disgraceful testimony. He chose personal prejudice and emotional angst over judicial temperament and sober deliberation: that was what should have been considered and disqualified him.

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Oct 8, 2018 23:06:35   #
Boo_Boo Loc: Jellystone
 
When the FBI questioned these people, they were under oath. Also, they are asked for a written statement which is a "sworn statement." I am sorry that May thinks the investigation was incomplete.... by the way, who is May?

I think that Judge K will do a good job.... his opinions will be based on law and the Constitution.
If you think this will ruin the Republic, I would be interested in your rationale.

You are right..... history was written and only time will tell how the actions, on both sides, will affect future assessments for appointees. I hope that the next committee will not elect a circus. I do have a feeling that the Democrats will suffer for this "show" in November. I think this is a shame because we need a balance.....

Women should hold any and all offices in which they are qualified and obtain the v**es. Equal opportunity has to be based on qualification not on g****r or color. So, if a woman is the best person for the job.... great. However, I do see many who will v**e for a person because of g****r..... now that could cause a downfall of the republic.

Floyd Brown wrote:
It is only under oath that what a person says carries any weight.
There is more than enough information for how the whole issue was handled so that the issue will never die & can never be erased. from history.
You may feel that it was a victory in your view.

It is quite another in the minds of may.
What has taken place over this issue is going to be the issue that will destroy the Republican as it stands to day.

The days of partisan politics is slipping away.

It is time for you to a line your self with what is coming.
The game is not going to be played by the Good Old Boys any more.
There is going to be a whole new gang. Many of them women.
I think the day of the individual is going to replace the Good Old Boys.

Maybe you should try to replace one of those Good Old boys.
May be if you played your cards right you could be one of the New Good Old Girls.

Some how I feel you would never be as bad.
It is only under oath that what a person says carr... (show quote)

Reply
 
 
Oct 8, 2018 23:08:39   #
Boo_Boo Loc: Jellystone
 
Sorry if my comment was over your head.

rumitoid wrote:
HOLY MACKEREL! Seriously? Wow! Can't reply. Nothing really to reply to. This has to be perhaps the wildest post I have seen here--and that approaches or passes the Nth Degree.

Reply
Oct 8, 2018 23:17:12   #
rumitoid
 
Pennylynn wrote:
Fact is, Mr. Judge's book was brought up in the cross examination of Judge K. Mr. Judge was interviewed by the FBI. In fact, several childhood friends were questioned by the FBI and NONE remembered the incident or the party that Ford described:

Who has been interviewed by the FBI?

Deborah Ramirez — The second woman to accuse Kavanaugh of misconduct, Ramirez has alleged that Kavanaugh exposed himself to her while both were in college at Yale University, which Kavanaugh denies. Ramirez was interviewed by the FBI for more than two hours on Sunday.

Mark Judge — Judge, a high school classmate of Kavanaugh, was interviewed this week. His interview was seen as crucial to the investigation because Ford says he was in the room for her alleged assault. Judge previously sent two letters to the Senate Judiciary Committee saying he did not remember the events Ford described that he “never saw Brett act in the manner Dr. Ford describes.”

Judge’s own memoir, however, seems to support one aspect of Ford’s story. She says that she saw Judge at a local Safeway shortly after the alleged incident and that he appeared very uncomfortable around her. In his memoir, Judge writes that he worked at the local grocery store during the summer before his senior year, which would have been the same year Ford is talking about.

Chris Garrett — Garrett, who was nicknamed “Squi” on Kavanaugh’s high school calendars, also participated in a FBI interview this week. He is the most frequently mentioned friend on Kavanaugh’s calendars and was listed as attending a July 1, 1982 party that includes several of the attendees Ford mentioned in her allegation.

P.J. Smyth — The FBI interviewed Smyth this week. He is another person that Ford alleges was at the party, and is mentioned as being at the July 1 party on Kavanaugh’s calendar. Smyth previously said through his lawyer that he had no knowledge of the party or the behavior that Ford alleged.

Leland Keyser — Keyser is a high school friend of Ford’s, who Ford says was at the gathering where the alleged assault occurred. The FBI interviewed her this week, according to the New York Times, but Keyser has previously said she does not remember the incident.

Timothy Gaudette — The FBI also interviewed Gaudette, who was noted as the host of the July 1 party on Kavanaugh’s calendar.

Unknown witnesses — The FBI interviewed at least three more unknown witnesses who have not been named publicly.

These were all of the "witnesses" that Ford said could vouch for her story, yet none did. Indeed, one person says that Ford and her retired CIA friend tried to convince her to swear to something she knew nothing about.

If just two of these people had vouched for Ford, I would be on board saying that perhaps another Judge should be nominated. But, NONE of these people vouched for her..... so, was the incident another year? A different party? Or is it possible that her "recovered" memories been wrong? Here is an excellent paper on recovered memories: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11228839 and this is a page of other articles on memory and "recovered" memory: http://www.fmsfonline.org/?qmemories=LaboratoryResearch:Recovered-Memories and this site is all about false memory http://www.fmsfonline.org/index.php. I am not saying that Ford is a bad person, I believe that she throughly believe what she claims.
Fact is, Mr. Judge's book was brought up in the c... (show quote)


This simple unt***h by you is enough to undermine your point. You said, "These were all of the "witnesses" that Ford said could vouch for her story, yet none did." Ford offered two witnesses, Keyser and Judge, to vouch for her story: that's it! Both said they did not remember (not like Kavanaugh's lie claiming they said it did not happen). Not the horde of witnesses you named in an attempt to make her statement look fatally flawed. A very cheap shot. The dastardly limit of the FBI probe by Republicans ignored numerous witnesses that would testify he was a sloppy and sometimes belligerent drunk, countering his choir boy descriptions of himself.

Reply
Oct 8, 2018 23:20:03   #
EmilyD
 
rumitoid wrote:
Party polarization is tearing at the fabric of American society. The partisan reaction to sexual assault allegations against Brett Kavanaugh demonstrates how far the threads have frayed. An Economist/YouGov poll shows Democrats by about an eight to one margin believe that Kavanaugh committed assault, while Republicans by a similar margin believe he didn’t.

Republicans, for example, have demonstrated an incredible capacity to see, hear, and speak no evil even when it comes to President Trump’s most questionable actions and assertions. According to a Quinnipiac poll in January 2018, about three-quarters of Republicans think he’s a good role model for their children.

Democrats, for their part, don’t seem willing to acknowledge inarguably positive developments for the country. A Gallup poll from July 2018 found that Republicans were more than twice as likely as Democrats (78 to 36%) to rate the economy as “excellent” or “good,” realizing full well that Trump and the Republicans benefit from the strong economy.

Before the 2016 e******n, a survey asked Americans which came closest to their view – “our lives are threatened by terrorists, criminals and immigrants, and our priority should be to protect ourselves” or “it’s a big, beautiful world, mostly full of good people, and we must find a way to embrace each other and not allow ourselves to become isolated”. About 80% of Trump supporters chose the first. About 80% of Clinton supporters chose the second. Talk about worlds apart.

On the Republican side of the worldview divide sit those who prefer children who respect their elders, are obedient, have good manners, and are well-behaved. They have what we call fixed worldviews. Because the world is dangerous to them, traditions and conventions should be fixed in place to maintain order. This worldview sees male authority figures such as Judge Kavanaugh sympathetically because male authority has always stood at the top of the cultural hierarchy. As such, they are concerned about new immigrants and threatened by the prospect of unconventional groups such as t*********red people sharing their bathrooms.

On the Democratic side are those who prefer independent, self-reliant, curious, and considerate children. They have what we call fluid worldviews. Because the world is, to them, safe to explore, challenging old folkways is feasible. Sometimes-discriminatory traditions and hierarchies must be swept away. This worldview sees traditional male authority as an unfair privilege that has allowed men to get away with anything and everything, including sexually assaulting women, without punishment. Fluid types celebrate new approaches and champion those who challenge old norms.

Worldviews operate at the gut level, shaping opinions before conscious thought begins. When it comes to the Kavanaugh allegations, specifically, fixed-worldview Republicans reflexively want to believe the man and will search for evidence to support that first impulse. Fluid-worldview Democrats reflexively want to believe the woman and will perform the same biased search for information to buttress their first impulse.

The fluid tend to be city dwellers, secular in their approach to religion and prefer the vanguard in both their politics and consumer choices. Biryani and a pinot gris sounds nice. Their grandparents’ coffee is boring to them and light beer is swill. And they’re predominantly Democrats.

When feelings are this deeply negative, it is little wonder that partisans seem so blind to obvious t***sgressions of their own leaders and that one side roots for the other to fail when that side is in power. The dynamics should be familiar to any reader who has ever h**ed another person. You always see yourself as virtuous and your enemy as villainous. And, if the feelings are sufficiently strong, you may even root for bad things to happen to your nemesis.

When worldviews divide partisans, it is best not to expect much to change. All the hatred has caused partisans’ political identities to become central to how they see themselves. The cognitive dissonance associated with giving an inch to their opponents overwhelms Americans’ rational selves. Partisans will perform Olympic-caliber mental gymnastics to maintain their beliefs and will seek information sources not in order to discern the t***h, but to reinforce their existing beliefs, even – perhaps especially – when a lifetime appointment to the Supreme Court is on the line.

Marc Hetherington and Jonathan Weiler are the co-authors of Prius or pickup: How the answers to four simple questions explain America’s great divide (Houghton Mifflin Harcourt), which is out on October 9 2018
Party polarization is tearing at the fabric of Ame... (show quote)


Are you going to let this go at some point? You might feel better if you do rumitoid.

FOCUS Pal...get a grip.

Reply
Oct 8, 2018 23:33:48   #
rumitoid
 
EmilyD wrote:
Are you going to let this go at some point? You might feel better if you do rumitoid.


I am in deep denial. Kavanaugh's appointment is a staggering loss. It is not quite possible for me to accept just yet that our system is not just broken; that could be fixed. It is that the whole process was a shocking display of the extraordinary baseness of many Republicans and appears rotten to the core. Never thought they could be so d********gly biased and lie so blatantly. Trump put on his usual and expected display of crassness and misogyny, but then to see the GOP lockstep in that outrage will take me a while to internalize.

Reply
 
 
Oct 8, 2018 23:46:53   #
Floyd Brown Loc: Milwaukee WI
 
Pennylynn wrote:
When the FBI questioned these people, they were under oath. Also, they are asked for a written statement which is a "sworn statement." I am sorry that May thinks the investigation was incomplete.... by the way, who is May?

I think that Judge K will do a good job.... his opinions will be based on law and the Constitution.
If you think this will ruin the Republic, I would be interested in your rationale.

You are right..... history was written and only time will tell how the actions, on both sides, will affect future assessments for appointees. I hope that the next committee will not elect a circus. I do have a feeling that the Democrats will suffer for this "show" in November. I think this is a shame because we need a balance.....

Women should hold any and all offices in which they are qualified and obtain the v**es. Equal opportunity has to be based on qualification not on g****r or color. So, if a woman is the best person for the job.... great. However, I do see many who will v**e for a person because of g****r..... now that could cause a downfall of the republic.
When the FBI questioned these people, they were un... (show quote)


If we need a balance we need to look back at just who upset the balance we are talking about.

If you wish to hang on to those old tried & true Good old Boys I guess that is fine for you.
I am saying there need not be much of an improvement from any that get the job.
We are not talking rocket science here. We are only talking about morality.
Any improvement will be an improvement.
That's how bad the GOOD OLD BOYS network has been for America..

I guess that May.
May have been one of the many that I miss spelled.

Reply
Oct 8, 2018 23:48:02   #
Boo_Boo Loc: Jellystone
 
I do not know which hearing you watched but Ms. Ford named (1) Mrs. Leland Ingham Keyser, (2) Mr. Mark Judge, and (3) Mr. Patrick “PJ” Smyth as collaborating witnesses. None said they recalled the party and not the event she describes. Also, Ms.. Keyser has come out to say she was contacted by Ms Fords friend (the one who was instructed by Ford to fool a polygraph test) and told to provide a supporting statement. The other people were taken from Judge Kavanaugh's calendar or from expansion of the investigation. Now then, it was the Democrats that pushed for a "limited" FBI reinvestigation. It was the Democrats that said it could and should be completed in less than a week. It was the Democrats that insisted on questioning Keyser, Judge, and PJ Smyth. Ford and Judge Kavanaugh had already been questioned, under oath, by the committee.

Four of the people Ms. Ford claimed were present, including the accused Judge Brett Kavanaugh, publicly state they have no knowledge of anything related to the accusation; including no recollection of any attendance at any gathering at a high school party claimed by Ms. Ford. Indeed, it seems that this is also true for all the people questioned by the FBI.

As I said, I am not saying she is a bad person..... I am saying that her "recovered" memories are faulty.

rumitoid wrote:
This simple unt***h by you is enough to undermine your point. You said, "These were all of the "witnesses" that Ford said could vouch for her story, yet none did." Ford offered two witnesses, Keyser and Judge, to vouch for her story: that's it! Both said they did not remember (not like Kavanaugh's lie claiming they said it did not happen). Not the horde of witnesses you named in an attempt to make her statement look fatally flawed. A very cheap shot. The dastardly limit of the FBI probe by Republicans ignored numerous witnesses that would testify he was a sloppy and sometimes belligerent drunk, countering his choir boy descriptions of himself.
This simple unt***h by you is enough to undermine ... (show quote)

Reply
Oct 8, 2018 23:50:57   #
Boo_Boo Loc: Jellystone
 
You have been taking lessons from Rumi on how to avoid conversations and questions by being completely rude. So, thank you for the effort and I guess I may see you on another thread... hopefully one that you and I can remain polite and find middle ground.

Floyd Brown wrote:
If we need a balance we need to look back at just who upset the balance we are talking about.

If you wish to hang on to those old tried & true Good old Boys I guess that is fine for you.
I am saying there need not be much of an improvement from any that get the job.
We are not talking rocket science here. We are only talking about morality.
Any improvement will be an improvement.
That's how bad the GOOD OLD BOYS network has been for America..

I guess that May.
May have been one of the many that I miss spelled.
If we need a balance we need to look back at just ... (show quote)

Reply
Oct 8, 2018 23:55:17   #
Floyd Brown Loc: Milwaukee WI
 
EmilyD wrote:
Are you going to let this go at some point? You might feel better if you do rumitoid.

FOCUS Pal...get a grip.


Well Kavanaugh is an issue that will live on past the time we all will live.
The issue of privilege is an issue that should never die.
I will use my last breath on Earth to keep the issue a live if I can.
I have lived a privileged life & can not find a better way to atone for my sins better than carrying the banner for seeking to promote fairness in life for all.

Reply
 
 
Oct 8, 2018 23:57:03   #
Boo_Boo Loc: Jellystone
 
Truly funny! But, at least you have a cause!

Floyd Brown wrote:
Well Kavanaugh is an issue that will live on past the time we all will live.
The issue of privilege is an issue that should never die.
I will use my last breath on Earth to keep the issue a live if I can.
I have lived a privileged life & can not find a better way to atone for my sins better than carrying the banner for seeking to promote fairness in life for all.

Reply
Oct 9, 2018 00:08:32   #
Floyd Brown Loc: Milwaukee WI
 
Pennylynn wrote:
You have been taking lessons from Rumi on how to avoid conversations and questions by being completely rude. So, thank you for the effort and I guess I may see you on another thread... hopefully one that you and I can remain polite and find middle ground.


I am sorry if I sounded rude. but I will stand by the words I used.

What you ask for.
May never happen while the manner of keeping privileges for the few remains a part of the conversation.
That is an issue that is at the center of most of the problems we face in America.

I do look forward to exchanging views on issues with you.
I feel very strongly that is what is need in bring understanding of what is really going on around us & how best for us to deal with it.

Have a good nights rest & wake on the sunrise with the energy & rested mind to meet the demands of the day.

Reply
Oct 9, 2018 01:17:51   #
rumitoid
 
Pennylynn wrote:
Sorry if my comment was over your head.


Missed the mark in your estimation by 5"11''. Sorry, I found them puerile, ridiculous. Shocked at how base and petty they were.

Reply
Oct 9, 2018 01:21:17   #
rumitoid
 
Pennylynn wrote:
You have been taking lessons from Rumi on how to avoid conversations and questions by being completely rude. So, thank you for the effort and I guess I may see you on another thread... hopefully one that you and I can remain polite and find middle ground.


Wow, you are sk**led, girl. Always with the negative innuendo--that does not exist! Show me where I was rude. You won't. You can't. You will switch to some other non-existent point.

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