No. I'm not a bigot, I have no problem with who anyone *is*... My problems are limited to the actions people take. I am - merit-based.


So this is an example of the classic fallacy, "false dilemma". Basically, an implied attempt to infer from one fact that something else must therefore be true when there is no logical basis for it.

Even so, I don't know what you think "Palestine" actually is... To me, it's an area of the Middle East where Israel got set up. But you seem to be connecting it to "terrorist" Iran, so I'll assume you are referring to Hamas. I just cautioned WEBCO on this... I do NOT fall for the attempts to diffuse my concern for the Palestinian people with paraphrases that recast it as a concern for Hamas. That's childish.

I understand Hamas (on a very basic level). That doesn't mean I support them.

Hamas is a part of a wider movement that spans the Muslim world... The Islamic Resistance. This movement is inspired by an interpretation of the Koran that states that no Muslim land shall be ruled by a foreign king. The interpretation allows for the justification of terrorist tactics against civilian populations thought to be "foreign" and thought to be "ruling". i.e., European Jews migrating to Israel.

I actually do support Hamas when they provide Palestinians with healthcare and I support them when they provide children with basic education. However, I do NOT subscribe to their religious BS... especially, the Islamic resistance or their terrorist assaults on civilians.

I think it's unfortunate that the Palestinian quest for freedom has become so desperate that they feel compelled to hitch a ride on the Islamic Resistance with Hamas.

As for "terrorist" Iran, they are all too familiar with foreign kings come to rule. In 1953, Anglo-American interest in Iranian oil drove the White House and the CIA to engineer a regime change to overturn the demand from the Iranian people to nationalize their oil. It took religious fanatics to topple the foreign king with their 1979 Revolution and the U.S. has been trying to reinstate the puppet government ever since.

So, I DO sympathize with the Iranian resistance to foreign kings. I even understand their proxy warfare on military targets, but I STILL don't support terrorism, the practice of terrifying civilian populations with lethal violence. That goes for the acts of terrorism supported by Iran and the U.S. alike.

WEBCO, I remember you being one of the more thoughtful people on the right... One of the few to have actually proved me wrong about something. I hope you're not going to squander the respect I have for you on childish taunts.

So let me ask you something... did you just ask a rhetorical question or have you really been that sheltered from 70 years of reporting about, investigations into and UN resolutions in response to... Israel's oppression of the Palestinian people?

To give you an immediate answer to start with, I'll just mention the fact that Palestinians in the occupied territories do NOT have the freedom of movement. If Palestinians living in Gaza want to leave their 5x3 mile "enclave" for any reason, they have to get permission from Israeli authorities and when they do get permission to travel, they are only allowed to use certain roads. I don't don't know what YOU call that but *I* call it oppression.

And that's just the tip of the iceberg.

And please stop with "everything Palestinian is Hamas" BS. We both know that isn't true. I said the *Palestinians* are being oppressed and you asked me how *Hamas* is being oppressed. Don't think that flew under my radar, I've been doing this way too long to fall for such cheap rhetorical tricks. To be clear, I wasn't talking about Hamas, an organization that *some* Palestinians have joined. I was talking about Palestinians as a whole, not all of which are involved in Hamas.

I took great efforts in my OP to specify that I am criticizing the right-wing Z*****ts specifically, not all of Israel and not all the Jewish people around the world.

One of the most blatant forms of smoke-screen tactics is to distort the precision of any accusation by swapping out the targets. For instance, calling any charge to Z*****m a charge against all the Jews of the world - or to call any concern for the Palestinians a misguided concern for Hamas.


Similar thing... you are trying to qualify my argument as "Marxist" even though I haven't said anything "Marxist" in this entire thread. BTW, there ARE no "Marxists" words. Karl Marx didn't invent any. His works have been t***slated into English using words that already existed in the English language.

Unfortunately, it's the American uptighty-righties, that got their panties in a knot over what they think are "Marxist words". I think this is part of the social engineering in which Americans are conditioned to avoid the language that would allow them to learn about how they are kept on a leash. Terms like "collectivism" and "working-class" are terms that help us discuss why the average American is struggling to make ends meet and what options there are to make it better - but NOT when we are conditioned to be repulsed by such terms. As far as I can tell, it's only the right that falls for it, which gets back to what I've been saying about the right for years. They are more loyal than rational.

The right wing perspective on Israel is the same. You folks are far more interested in defending your narrative out of loyalty than you are in any kind of rational thinking that considers all inputs. If one input for instance is coming from a source that is opposed to your allegiance, you will shut off that input and learn nothing from it. And this isn't just in America... The Z*****ts aggressors in Israel are also right-wing in their spectrum of politics and they do the same thing. And guess what? Hamas is part of the Islamic Resistance which is hardcore right-wing also. These people are k*****g each other because of their loyalty to their respective narratives that actually encourages them to k**l each other.

If they all stopped long enough to think about everything in a rational way, peace might actually be achieved.

Of course it was. I never said any different. I even explained their motive for doing it as part of an ongoing war. This is the part of the story that the Israeli narrative denies.


OK, so you really didn't read my post did you? I already covered that too. So far, most reports of these barbarous acts have been debunked and we are still waiting for real evidence that it even happened. As for the kidnapping we know very well why they did it. To gain leverage for the release of thousands of Palestinian hostages that the Israeli narrative conveniently forgets to mention.


Maybe it was unwise to host a "peace concert" where everyone is having a good time, within earshot of an occupied territory where oppressed people who were NOT invited are kept behind fences to die of starvation and disease. Have you even thought about that?


I won't dispute the sentiment as you describe it, in fact I already covered THAT in my OP as well when I said... Yes, they want to destroy Israel. But that's a pipedream fostered by religious zealots. Most Palestinians just want to be liberated from Israel's inhumane oppression"

I WILL dispute your claim that this religiously-driven fanaticism is the main obstacle... It is not. In fact the conflict has been a problem long before Hamas even came around. The main obstacle are the Z*****ts that have been trying to rid the land of Palestinians for almost a century now.


I understand that, but it's no excuse to take land from others who were already living there. A lot of ethnic groups have been persecuted around the world - I don't see any of them claiming ownership of other people's land.


The Z*****t quest for a Jewish state in the Levant started in the late 19th century. The Holocaust didn't happen until much later. The significance of the Holocaust in this context is that it provided the Z*****ts with a more justifiable excuse to demand their own state, whereas before they were depending on religious claims, legal loopholes and terrorism aimed at British targets during the mandate.

And yes Hamas was probably hoping Israel would negotiate, while also expecting them to attack, but it doesn't make any sense to call the Israeli response a war, because all parties involved were already at war.


That doesn't mean anything. Israel still controls the borders, they control who and what can come in an go out. They still periodically launch attacks, cut their electricity and their water. Israel never stopped occupying Gaza, it's just safer for them to do it from outside the borders. Gaza is only 5 miles long and 3 miles wide. Why would Israel need soldiers inside such a tiny place just to keep it under their control to and torture the occupants?


Some Palestinians DO work in Israel... but they are NOT treated equally and are often abused. But yes, they often do get better compensation, especially when their employers in Gaza are destroyed by Israeli forces.


This is what I meant in my OP when I said... "The Palestinian people don't have the capacity to sustain a constant battle with US-funded Israel. So the war is broken into rounds where the Palestinians are militarily defeated and there's a period of peace, but even during that "peace" Israel continues to abuse and provoke."
So yes, time and time again Israel gets the Palestinians to cry uncle and agree to a ceasefire, which simply means the tactics switch from full-scale combat back to a cycle of low-attrition warfare in which Israel continues to abuse and provoke the Palestinians until they try to fight again.

It's contant... There has only been ONE war. From 1949 to now. This is what war looks like when one side is so weak it can barely stand up to fight but the other side wants to k**l them anyway. Like the Indian Wars in our own history. We think if them as separate unrelated events but they were all part of the same effort to displace all the native Americans.


Israel never made any real concessions. They talk up a game in western media but every effort to negotiate peace was always doomed by one thing. The Z*****ts wanted it all. Their concessions NEVER actually included a Palestinian state and that's all the PLO was asking for.


Jordan was indeed part of the British mandate, but that mandate was part of a division of land between the western powers that defeated the Ottoman Empire and had no relation to how the Arab people that were living there were divided ethnically.

https://static.onepoliticalplaza.com/upload/2024/5/8/428157-mandatesandethnicities.jpg

What people seem to forget is that Palestine was never an actual state. It has always been a reference to an area that has often been divided into different political entities. So while most people in Jordan are Palestinians, 50% of them are actually refugees from a different part of Palestine... The part that the Z*****ts took.

So what you are saying would be no different than saying it's OK for China to take over the US, because Canada is still part of North America so we can just move there.


OK, so you can at least distinguish between Likud as a party and Israel as a state. That's a lot better than many.

I also believe Israel is a state and should remain so but I am NOT a Z*****t. So it seems we don't agree on what Z*****m actually is. The reason why I think Israel has a right to exist is because at this point, there are many Israelis that were born in Israel and have no other home. Just call that a consideration for the Jewish people that Z*****ts continue to deny to Palestinians.

At it's most basic level, Z*****m is the effort to "get home". For example, there are many references to Z*****m in Rastafari thinking where descendants of s***es dream about going back to Africa. But they don't talk about stealing land from people who already live on it. The Jewish Z*****m that started in Hungary in the late 19th century was an effort to TAKE land from people already living there AND k*****g them if they dare to fight back. It's a very aggressive and violent form of z*****m and that's a big reason why I am stoutly anti-Z*****t. The biggest reason for me is that they are still doing it.

I know what I am talking about. I've been following this conflict for the last 40 years and my sources range from people that I know personally, including two that served in the IDF to media sources ranging from Haaretz to al-Jazeera. Also, once you drop the prejudice, it's a lot easier to see the naked t***h of the matter. You never go there so you wouldn't know, but it's actually very OBVIOUS.

My guess is that YOU are the one suckling on the homogenized media of one-sided narratives.

I'm not anti-Jewish either. That's why I said this...

I should be specific about what I mean by "Israel" because this is NOT an anti-Semitic attack... I am referring, specifically to the right-wing Likud party currently in power. THEY want to complete their Z*****t objective which is to displace the Palestinian people entirely."

...because I KNEW the first thing someone like you would come back with us that I'm anti-Semitic. My problem is with the Z*****ts, both Christian and Jewish. Not all Jews and Christians are Z*****ts... Only some of them are. In fact I am in alignment with the Orthodox Jews who are pointing out that Z*****m is a violation of Judaism. Notice the title... The "Z*****t War". Not the Jewish War.

I was going to say nice try, but it's not even that. You just reached for the most simple-minded response possible. Don't like anyone pointing out the t***h about Israel? Call them anti-Semitic.

No, but YOU are... Since ALL Arabs ARE Semitic people (and only some Jews are), I would say that your hatred of Palestinians qualifies as anti-Semitism and your narrative that Israel is only defending itself IS in fact a smokescreen to hide it.

So, I knew the moment I heard that Hamas agreed to a ceasefire brokered by Egypt and Qatar. I knew that Israel would say "no deal".

Israel doesn't want a ceasefire. They never did. They want to clear Gaza of ALL Palestinians. I should be specific about what I mean by "Israel" because this is NOT an anti-semitic attack... I am referring, specifically to the right-wing Likud party currently in power. THEY want to complete their Z*****t objective which is to displace the Palestinian people entirely.

They've been working on this for over 70 years in an effort that most people and media networks misdiagnose as a series of defensive wars but they really aren't. It's been one long war in which Israel continues a strategy of constant abuse aimed at provoking the Palestinian people into committing acts of violence so they can justify their most egregious offenses as matters of defense. Or as some will ironically claim, an effort to defend Israel's "right to exist".

The Palestinian people don't have the capacity to sustain a constant battle with US-funded Israel. So the war is broken into rounds where the Palestinians are militarily defeated and there's a period of peace, but even during that "peace" Israel continues to abuse and provoke. Sometimes if the period of "peace" get's long enough without any violent reactions from the Palestinians, Israel will launch unprovoked attacks which they refer to as "mowing the lawn".

October 7th was 100% the result of this Israeli strategy of provocation. Israel has incarcerated thousands of Palestinians, many of them under 18 years of age, for little to no reason and they DO torture them. They do these things intentionally to anger Palestinians. On October 7th 2023, Hamas was able to break out of the prison we call Gaza and grab several hundred Israeli hostages. That was their objective. They did this to give them some leverage in negotiations to release as many of the Palestinians being tortured in Israeli prisons as possible.

But this was exactly what the Israeli government wanted. Another excuse to k**l as many Palestinians as possible.

Where there also rapes and beheaded babies on October 7th? So far, there have only been unsubstantiated claims from people trying to extend the masterful illusion that Palestinians are monsters. Where a lot of people k**led? Yes, mostly from exchange of fire between Hamas and the IDF.

Within days of the event, Hamas tried to open negotiations for a prisoner exchange and Israel refused. Choosing instead to launch airstrikes in areas that hostages were thought to be held. I'm sure it suits their purpose better to k**l some hostages and blame Hamas than to negotiate their release.

Now they've taken the Palestinian side of the Rafah crossing so they can block humanitarian aid coming from Egypt. Big surprise.

Since this will no doubt come up... I will address the sentiment of the Islamic Resistance, echoed by Hamas. Yes, they want to destroy Israel. But that's a pipedream fostered by religious zealots. Most Palestinians just want to be liberated from Israel's inhumane oppression and that's the part that I support 1000%

That all you people can ever say. You can never confront any criticism of Trump, instead you deflect by throwing out Biden as if the two are equivalent. Almost every time.

How do you figure?
I know you're a sucker for conspiracy theories but the recorded facts are are just what Pete stated. Trump's claim that the e******n was s****n is a lie and we all know it. And now, evidence is surfacing that Trump himself was involved in rigging the e******ns. I won't call that a fact yet but even just the rhetoric about the s****n e******n knocks the kneecaps of our faith in American democracy. Both of these things can be viewed as assaults on our democracy

Biden, who has been elected to office many more times than Trump, has never assaulted our democracy. Maybe he has in your conspiracy theories but there's no recorded evidence for it.

Yes, I did. As far as I was concerned, if people want to believe conspiracy theorists instead of doctors that's their own business. I got the jab and it was 100% voluntary. No one forced me.

I also wore a mask in public spaces in case I was carrying the v***s because I didn't want to spread it, especially when v*****es weren't available to children. After I felt that everyone had a chance to v******te, I stopped wearing a mask because if I spread the v***s to someone who was too stupid to v******te, that's their problem.

There's a lot of morons out there that thought people were wearing masks to protect themselves but they bigger reason is to protect others. So, I wasn't surprised to find that the most selfish and ignorant Americans were the ones refusing to wear masks.

I will say this though... The rampant spread of stupidity during the p******c was a declaration to the world that in the coming age of biological warfare, America will be among the weakest nations on Earth. With half the nation being so stupid we will not able to defend ourselves against a weaponized v***s.

I think there is a difference in our perspective that we both need to recognize. You often use phrases like "pushing a******n", as if the liberal laws or the money are being used to force or sell a******n. If that were the case, I would agree with you. But I don't think that is the case, I think the liberal laws and money are being used to defend women from other legislators that are funneling money into efforts to ban a******n. So I stand on the side of liberty as in personal and medical options not taken away by prohibitive laws.

As for this being funded by US tax-dollars for the benefit of women outside the U.S. I dunno, I think there's a national interest issue there if that's actually what the EO is stupilating.

I'm noticing that none of these 10 "executive orders" have numbers... and their titles don't match anything either... So I'll not respond to the others in the list, there's just too much ambiguity.

I'm looking at the national register that records the actual orders. Can we start there?

I thought you were going to dispute my point. But I guess your attempts to insult me is the best you can do. As for listing sources... I often do when citing specifics. Not so much when stating things that I think are obvious. I've known that leases take on average of around 10 years to develop for long time now. I can't even remember the specific sources from where I got that information. It was probably back when Bush was in office.

Also, just to point out your hypocrisy... you didn't list a source when you said a lease can take as little as 4 to 5 years to develop. Not that it mattered because even then, Biden's policies haven't been around for 4 to 5 years so clearly, his policy would STILL not have prevented a new lease from producing oil today or three years ago when you twits were first blaming inflation on Biden's energy policy.


How would that apply to income tax? The Federal Reserve is the ONLY entity that can print money and it has nothing to do with income tax. Tax is not debt anyway.


Well, keep it up... One of these days it might actually work. As for my comment, I was generalizing, based on the behavior of many members here on OPP, not just you. That is why I told you not to take it personally.


"ersatz omniscience"... awesome.

So, making stuff up and calling it fact just isn't my thing, man. Maybe you're referring to my theories. Easy to point them out because I will always use the correct context and use phrases like "I think", "I would suspect", "I wouldn't be surprised:, or even something like "very high probability". Those are theories and yes, I make a lot of it up.

See now, if you can sit down maybe have some tea... we can have theoretical discussions but it's hard to do when you keep jumping to yer guns.


yeah... I can feel your anger building up as I read your response. I hope you're ok. So many old geezers here, I worry a conversation is going to give them a heart attack.

padremike says I make him sweat.

Look, I don't know why you got so upset with my challenge... I don't even remember what you're referring to but I do challenge what people say, and when their response is to throw URLs at you... that's being lazy... OR incapable. You can get all snippy and insulting if you like, it doesn't bother me. But it doesn't change what I said either.

I wasn't pontificating. I was going by a different dataset.
https://usafacts.org/visualizations/c****av***s-c****-**-spread-map/

From here I was taking the total population of each state and dividing it by the number of C***d-related deaths for that state. That's the basic method for getting a per capita estimate.

Total C***d-related deaths in California was 102,356 according to that report. Total population in California is 39 million. So 39,000,000 / 102,356 = 1 death per 381 people (per capita)

Total C***d-related deaths in Florida was 89,075 according to that report. Total population in Florida is 22.24 million. So, 22,240,000 / 89,075 = 1 death per 250 people (per capita)

I may have exaggerated slightly when I said "twice as much"... I'll own that. A more accurate assessment is that the C***d death rate per capita in California is only 66% of what it was in Florida.

Regarding the CDC report... Those numbers are processed further to extrapolate more specific conclusions, such as being adjusted for age. The report is also limited to data from 2020 and 2021. 2022 is excluded. AND there is this disclaimer at the bottom of the report...

"Although adjusted for differences in age-distribution and population size, rankings by state do not take into account other state specific population characteristics that may affect the level of mortality."

Not that it matters in the end because my point still stands, even with your data... California is a better job of protecting its people.


I don't see how that matters... If you have more at-risk people, all the reason to be more cautious. It seems that your answer is "well, they were at more risk anyway so that's our excuse".


It looks like I DID do research. And you are the one scanning for numbers that suit your opinions better without considering the context.

I think it's a fair assessment, generally speaking.


*ALL* conspiracy theories claim to expose crimes and shenanigans.


So you gotta list of gripes, exaggerations and conspiracy theories... Now what? Ya gonna do a dance too?


Yeah, you posted that already. ;)

Consider what witless was mentioning earlier... He was talking about a focus on policy. He also brought up the executive orders. What better way to start? I agree with him that if we are discussing potential presidents we should be focused on their policies. Although judging by your list, I suspect you might be concerned about bigger things than p**********l races. If this is about ideology for you, the p**********l race will only be a distraction.

Check out the national register https://www.federalregister.gov/p**********l-documents/executive-orders. That'll give you a list of "magnificent accomplishments" by both of them and *THESE* accomplishments" actually have their signature on them.

I would just add that if more people can learn to think critically instead of getting agitated by rhetoric, we might find that our differences are not all that irreconcilable.

Almost all the valid complaints I hear from both sides (such as the unaffordable cost of living) are a result systemic issues that have been in place for decades and yet everyone is focused on the candidates currently running for president because the political parties are competing for our v**es. If someone is blaming Trump or Biden for "serious damage" to our country, they are are only paying attention to the rhetoric of their political party, not the details of the actual problem.