One Political Plaza - Home of politics
Home Active Topics Newest Pictures Search Login Register
Posts for: straightUp
Page: <<prev 1 ... 324 325 326 327 328 329 330 331 332 ... 746 next>>
Sep 22, 2019 22:23:29   #
Navigator wrote:
You do realize that Howard Zinn's book was total BS?

How would you know?

Navigator wrote:

For thousands of years EVERY culture, every government was ruled by Kings, Sultans, Regents, Monarchs or some other kind of dictator and EVERYONE outside the inner circle was a slave.
That's not entirely true.

Navigator wrote:

The "assholes" you mentioned founded and fought for the first government that intentionally subjugated itself to the will of the people and to imagine their primary motivation for putting at risk their livelihood, their families and their lives was to intentionally not lift some classes of people out of the slavery they were all in is extraordinarily shortsighted.

Wow, you are really brainwashed. I mean you have to be a completely ignorant of the all the parliamentary systems being developed in Europe when America was still a collection of colonies to say what you did. The American republic was certainly a model of inspiration for other colonies dreaming of liberation from their owners but it most of it was itself modeled after preexisting systems in Europe.

And yes, the founders "assholes that they were" fought and almost got their asses kicked if not for the French that came to help. We should really be more thankful to them for that but maybe our patriotic arrogance gets in the way. In any case, they did manage to liberate themselves from the exploitation of the British corporations, but only to continue the exploitation themselves. It was really a case of "meet the new boss, same as the old boss". Except that slaves no longer had any hope of freedom and the Indians no longer had any reason to trust the treaties.

But go ahead and subscribe to the institutional view (ages 5 and up) that you were engineered to believe in and please keep me laughing my ass off.
Go to
Sep 22, 2019 21:47:05   #
Seth wrote:
As I said elsewhere, this country, as you point out yourself, has had to correct a few items, some horrendous, some not as horrendous, but... That came with social evolution, and it was made possible, in nearly every case, according to the framework set up by the founders.

That's how law works Seth... You either implement change through armed revolution or through an existing legal system. Peaceful transformations through existing legal frameworks have happened throughout history and across the world. There's nothing THAT unique about ours. I WILL say that almost every change to this country has been resisted and in many cases it's the ideas that the founders inscribed in the margins of their documents that validated the change. I would also argue that in many cases that use of those lofty ideas was NOT what the founder intended. I do NOT think for instance, that when they said "all men are created equal" they mean for later generations to interpret that as including black people.

Seth wrote:

I don't for one minute believe the left would stop at a few changes -- if nothing else, your fellow travelers have shown over the years that the more concessions you get, the more you'll demand (sort of like a terrorist organization 😁).

Perhaps. Then again, I don't see why not. There is still a lot that can improve. Are you saying people should stop trying to make the world a better place?

Seth wrote:

There is simply nothing reasonable in the intentions of the left, the actual goal is getting the whole enchilada.

That's just your paranoia.

Seth wrote:

Your ilk shows your contempt for America every time a single one of you expresses the desire to "expand" SCOTUS in order to introduce more anti-Constitution activist leftie justices or bellows about doing away with the electoral college.

That's not contempt, that's love for and dedication to the nation we are a part of whether you like it or not. We want the system the founders pretended to want - a democratic and accessible system that is befits the vision we have of a strong and benevolent nation.

Unless you can give me an example of a left-leaning, anti-constitutional judge I will continue to assume "anti-constitutional" is just another term you don't really understand.

I have no problem with the Electoral College because I know it's not what you think it is. My problem is with the uneven distribution of representatives per capita and to be honest, I am a little disappointed with those Democrats that think the problem is with the EC and not the distribution of representatives.

Seth wrote:

There are a few other leftists here at OPP who pretend to be "reasonable and thoughtful," but the bottom line is that they, too, are as transparent as you are.

It sounds like you just don't like us Seth. I'm heart-broken, really.
Go to
Sep 22, 2019 19:27:51   #
Seth wrote:
Your "additional information" does nothing to alter the wisdom the founders had in setting up, as it were, this country as it has been run the last nearly 2 1/2 centuries.

I didn't say it did. The additional details simply changes the motive for creating that system. It's a point that answers what you said about the founder's vision, not the system they created for achieving it.

Seth wrote:

Sure, as is always the case, there have been a few things that needed correcting, some more unconscionable, perhaps, than others but we have corrected them.

The liberals corrected them not the conservatives. By definition the conservatives are ALWAYS against change, that is the defining character of a conservative and our history proves that indeed all changes to the original vision have been made by liberals, even when they were called Radical Republicans.

Seth wrote:

Despite the bulls**t your side continually spews about anyone not supporting illegal immigration or, for that matter, being in disagreement with the left being "racists," -- yeah, I know, who said anything about racism, right? -- that alone is enough to disqualify your side, every last one of you, as being even remotely credible.

I'm not sure that even makes sense. It seems like your floundering now. You're not bringing up any examples or logical explanations... So, is this just a showdown of baseless opinions? Let me know 'cause if that's all you got - I have other things to do.

Seth wrote:

Every time one of you calls the president an obscene or otherwise derogatory name, it speaks to the slanderous nature of every last one of you.

Aw... do you want your PC back little girl? Trump lost his right to be respected when he clearly showed his own lack of respect for others.

Seth wrote:

Everytime one of you posts that you don't approve of our form of government, you proclaim that, if you live here, you ought not to, for there are many other places to live that may better suit you than in a country you think should be changed to meet your totalitarian requirements, rather than trying to force an inferior standard of existence on the rest of us.

Better yet, if you're so uncomfortable with our right to express our opinions and our right to be represented in legislation, then maybe China or North Korea would be a better place for you. They certainly don't allow any liberals there. Or Iran might be good for you too, where secularists and homosexuals are not allowed.

Bottom line Seth... It's YOUR side that is asking for a totalitarian system not mine. We stand for freedom you just like to pretend you do. The system you want is the commercial system that raises Americans like a human crop. Well, F that.

Seth wrote:

You admit to being a leftist, and EagleEye has posted that you might be a Brit. If you are the latter, then you're probably a remoaner, as well, so your ilk is bad for both countries.

Left and right is relative. From what I can tell, I am left of you and people like Eagle. But doubt you actually understand what I mean by left anyway.

As for being a Brit... yes, my parent immigrated here when I was two years old. So I'm about as British as you are Polish.

Seth wrote:

I have a great idea: since Britain is still part of the EU, you can travel to Curacao on your EU ID -- once there, it's less than 20 miles by boat to Venezuela...

Fig. A: Boats ⛵⛴️🚤🛥️

...or a short hop by plane...

Fig. B: A plane 🛩️

...or helicopter...

Fig. C: A helicopter 🚁

...and then you will be in your dream country.

And you can leave the free countries you so despise, leaving us, in turn, to enjoy freedom and prosperity without your leftist ilk's trying to deprive us of them.

-- "What a deal!"

-- "Don't let the door hit you..."

-- "Bon voyage!"
br I have a great idea: since Britain is still pa... (show quote)


I got a better idea. I think I'm going to stay here and do everything in my power to destroy YOUR version of America. It's amazing what immigrants can do. I got my citizenship when I turned 18, so I vote, I write op-eds that get published, I write to my representatives. I've had children here and one of them is getting her degree in public law and is currently working with AI to battle the Trump administration to keep immigrant families together. It's a great feeling knowing that I am making a difference, so why would I want to go somewhere else?

Go to
Sep 22, 2019 18:43:42   #
Seth wrote:

I truly don't know what any leftists who were raised in America when I grew up -- I am now in my mid sixties -- could possibly see in the concept of "fundamentally transforming America," but it's all wrong. Every single "change" you folks want to engender in this country has already been proven, several times, in fact, as ingredients in a recipe for misery.

You should probably try to understand the concepts before you slam them with the standard rhetorical responses. When you mention things like "fundamentally transforming America" there's an opportunity to have a real discussion and actually learn more about what the problems are. I would start by asking what you think a fundamental transformation actually means because to be honest I have no idea what you think it means, so I can't even comment.

But just to point out some of the transformations that we progressives have put America through over the past century that actually worked out well... Workers don't have to work 16 hour days anymore and can enjoy more time with their families. Children aren't forced to work anymore and can actually go to school, the largest and most successful socialist systems in the world have been established that our police, fire, first-response... all those thin lines have depended on for over a century, not to mention social security and medicare for our elderly and oh, yeah - our national defense. There is also the consumer protections that safeguard Americans from exploitation and harm.

So what were you saying about every single "change" we want to engender in this country?

Seth wrote:

Yet you keep embracing the same concepts, and believe that you can convince freedom loving Americans
that a gargantuan, omnipotent federal government that can overrule things like free speech and religious freedom (except for Muslims, who have carte blanche to do as they please) while using fake science to undermine our economy, export American jobs and micromanage every aspect of our lives.

When you're done telling the government to outlaw same-sex marriage, come back and talk to me about your distaste for an overbearing government. You are blind as a bat if you can't see both sides trying to load up the government - the only difference is, the liberals tend to use government to regulate commerce where the conservatives use government to regulate people.

The reason why I used to call myself a Jeffersonian is because I value smaller government. Trust me, between the two of us YOU are the one asking for a larger government. You just don't really think about it outside of it's value as a canned attack on liberals

Seth wrote:

The left forces acceptance on us of things we don't want any part of, taxes and spends as though the hard working taxpayer's money belongs to the government and is there to be thrown around on social issues, indoctrinates school children and college students, propagandizes the media, encourages violence against conservatives... And attacks capitalism, which is half the description of our capitalist republic.


Our republic is defined by its laws none of which describe our republic as a capitalist system. Our Constitution can host any number of economic systems including capitalism and socialism and in fact it does. Our economic system, like most economic systems throughout the world today is a hybrid of both capitalism and socialism. These systems obviously work well together, socialism works better for solving problem that are not profitable, like protecting people from crime or disease. Capitalism works well for everything else. But for every market space handled by socialism there is a capitalist that would rather find a way to take public funding away and force the consumer to buy from him instead. That is why there is such an effort among business leaders with these types of interests to socially engineer your opinion on a subject you apparently don't know much about.

Seth wrote:

My whole point about the Obama-Medvedev exchange is that had Trump been there instead of Obama, you folks would have been shouting about it from the rooftops, talking heads at CNN and MSNBC would be saying the exchange was ironclad proof of "collusion" and you'd be right here posting the same thing.

There's this little item called the "double standard", you see....

Oh, I see alright... I see a little item called the "double standard" that is depending entirely on a complete fantasy about how the people and the media would react if Trump was negotiating with Medvedev. LOL.

Got news for ya... That never happened. Also, since you apparently don't understand what people are concerned about with Trump... the Obama-Medvedev Commission was NOT a secret. In fact if Trump were to do what Obama did, our jaws would drop in disbelief. Liberals would be on the floor twitching. The shock of seeing Trump doing something constructive would simply blow our minds.
Go to
Sep 22, 2019 17:56:26   #
Navigator wrote:
If your nightmares are as ridiculous as your day fantasies you must never sleep.

I sleep fine... With all the comic antics from Trump and his base of thumbsucking babies I laugh myself to sleep every night.
Go to
Sep 22, 2019 17:42:34   #
nwtk2007 wrote:
Trump: "Great crowd, probably 50,000!"

Trump haters: "We fact checked and Trump is lying again. There were only 49,500 in attendance! Lying Trump!!"

LOL - how can you miss the point by so much? The numbers don't matter, they never did. The liberals are laughing at the dolt simply because he made such a big deal out the crowd size in the first place. I mean what president ever takes the podium and starts off by commenting on how large his audience is?

If anyone else said it... people would be like... "okay..." like it's kinda weird but move on because it's not a really big deal. But Trump has made it apparent that he has a personal obsession with affirming his own greatness which is a trait often found in weak people and especially among the two-bit dictators that super-powers love to manipulate. It's not a good trait for a president to have.

But trying to subdue the ridicule and laughter with checks on the numbers... Ha, ha, ha - that's just plain good old fashioned stupid... No offense, I'm not referring to you as a person, only to your assumption that the numbers somehow redeems your "leader". Hey, we all say stupid things from time to time.
Go to
Sep 22, 2019 17:32:20   #
Seth wrote:
The western world, including America, has socially evolved over the last 2 1/2 centuries, and what were norms then are anathema today.

Agreed.

Seth wrote:

The founders' vision has proven correct where our country is concerned,

Correct about what?

Seth wrote:

those of us alive today had nothing to do with the proclivities of the distant past nor do we bear any responsibility for them.

Agreed.

Seth wrote:

All you're doing is running the usual leftist guilt trip, like the rest of the traitors who want to erase our history through revisionism and the toppling of our national monuments.

There is nothing "usual" about the point I made in my last post. It's an extremely unpopular idea on both the right AND the left because it challenges the history that we've all been taught. I don't think I'm erasing history either, nor do I want to. If anything, the additional facts I've learned are a restoration of historical details which together with the institutional version of history that you remember renders a more accurate composition. Kinda like adjusting the lens on a microscope.

BTW, for someone who say's no one alive today is responsible for what happened centuries ago, you seem very defensive.

Also, if you're lashing out at me because of the toppling of our national monuments, your anger is misplaced. I actually defend the right for those monuments to remain. I am NOT a part of those extremist that demand we erase all commemoration of our history just because there's some bad things associated with it and it's a mistake to constantly bag us all together. If we were truly in lock-step they way you portray us, the Democrats wouldn't be so disorganized and ineffective at dealing with the right.

Seth wrote:

In the kind of society you and the rest of your Bolshevik comrades promote, you wouldn't even have the right to speak out as you do without "disappearing" into a "reindoctrination" facility, a mental hospital or a gulag.

Yeah, see - you're doing it again. Assuming everyone on the left is a communist. Let me ask you something - can you point to ANY post on OPP where a liberal confesses to being a communist? No? Do you think it's because they're hiding it? On a web site where everyone is anonymous anyway?

Get over it Seth - the percentage of people on the left that are confessed communists is probably less that the percentage of the right that are confessed Nazis.

I can only assume two things from your statement - you KNOW all this but just want to goad me, or you really don't understand the difference between communism as a theory, Bolshevism as a historical event, and democratic socialism as a practice.

Seth wrote:

See, your ilk likes to pretend, for political agenda purposes, that you really care about human beings and their "plights," but in reality your only concern is your political agendas -- to the left, people are little more than pieces of meat.

Your self righteousness is so obviously false.

If you leftists don't like America as it is, as the majority of us do, instead of trying to destroy this great nation perhaps you should simply move someplace where things are more to your liking, like Cuba or Venezuela.
br See, your ilk likes to pretend, for political ... (show quote)

Ugh... talk about the "usual" tripe. You sound like an old 8-track that someone has been playing since 1978. Do you ever think about things Seth? Or do you just parrot the same tired old insults because it distracts you from your own personal failures?
Go to
Sep 22, 2019 12:22:54   #
eagleye13 wrote:
"I can't help you with your delusion eagle. Sorry."
Delusion is in the eye of the beholder.

How's the surf in your parts these days?
I am not sure if Floridians know what good surf is. It is rare.
We are getting 2 ft to 3 ft (at most) blown out windy swells here in Daytona.
My sympathy!
But at least they are having fun.

As long as your having fun that's the big thing. I haven't been out for a while. I'm currently in PA working on a project. (The people here know less about what good surf is than they do in Florida. LOL)
Go to
Sep 22, 2019 12:19:19   #
Seth wrote:
As an American who comes from early 20th Century immigrants from Ukraine and Poland, I grew up in a patriotic Democrat family. I left the Democratic Party after a term of Jimmy Carter, for whom I had voted, and haven't looked back.

Apparently the Democrats haven't either, because virtually everything they now embrace goes counter to the America envisioned by the founders and, in fact, seems geared toward subduing our culture, crushing our economy and deleting the Bill of Rights.

Here's something that might serve to put your accusation of my double-standard to rest. I don't support the original vision of our founders. I think they were all assholes. As someone who has until recently identified as a Jeffersonian this is an example of how I have changed as a result of debate. Something you have accused me of not being capable of.

I've come to realize that in 1772 the British government started to consider the eradication of slavery throughout it's empire and founders like Jefferson and Washington (both slave owners) didn't much like the idea. There is much evidence to suggest that preserving the slave trade was at the heart of our declaration for independence where things like the Stamp Act were mere excuses. Because of this, during the revolution itself, almost every black man involved in combat was on the British side.

Most of the Indians were also aligned with the British but for a different reason... they didn't trust the colonists to honor the land treaties, which in the end they did not.

Indeed, the founders created a system that served them as white male landowners and disadvantaged everyone else. Just within Jefferson's lifetime, America broke numerous treaties they signed with the Indian while under British rule and invaded their neighbors in 1812 in efforts to expand their territory by force. So make no mistake, I am not a believer in our foundation. I think there were some nice ideas in our founding documents that reflected intellectual thinking of the time, such as all men being created equal, but they were obviously using these lofty concepts to decorate their appeals not to actually live by. How else would you explain a man writing a letter to a king that all men are created equal while his slaves were chained up a few yards away?

Oh, that's right - slaves were only 3/5ths human. Yeah, f**k the foundation. That doesn't mean I hate America today... quite the contrary. America changed for the better. Through the courage of countless people that stood up to exploitation and selective oppression and ironically, those lofty ideas that the founders rhetorically spoke of, not thinking people would actually use them to validate social movements, America went through a slow process of becoming a more fair and just nation. That process is still happening despite the bitter complaints of those who pine for the old ways of bigotry and oppression.

So... getting back to your accusations... Yes, I strongly support the efforts to counter the original vision of our asshole founders. As for subduing our culture, that's far to vague an accusation to respond to because America is in fact a mix of many cultures. But if YOUR culture is based on bigotry and unfair advantages then yes, I am opposed. As for the economy - I think it's pretty clear. For the past 40 years we have seen Republicans trash the economy and Democrats fix the economy. I don't know how you can possibly see it any other way. I mean the economy is so easy to measure empirically and all it takes is simple math to understand how the Republican habit of cutting taxes and spending more money results in larger deficits and eventually higher debts and the historical trends illustrate that as plain as day.

Deleting the Bill of Rights, which many founders fought bitterly NOT to ratify, is not under attack by the left by any stretch of the imagination. I see the right-wing arguments all the time, especially around the 1st and 2nd Amendments but they all depend on this overstated slippery-slope notion, which means most of the argument is fictional.

To avoid an already long answer getting even longer, I will answer the rest of your unfounded charges in a subsequent post.
Go to
Sep 22, 2019 11:14:50   #
emarine wrote:
Bottom line our President's are either trusted or not... trump is not trusted by the major majority of Americans … just you serfs trust fake reality & trump...


That's a very good point emarine. Both the polls and the voting booths suggest the majority of Americans don't trust Trump. His base is obviously struggling to find any grounds on which to change that. it seems they try to make up for that with these crazy conspiracy theories that really don't help anything other than more agitation on the right and more laughter on the left.

Meanwhile, Trump keeps pulling these bonehead moves that makes things worse. Now, there are reports that he has asked the Ukrainian president-elect to investigate Joe Biden and his son. it just seems like a really stupid thing to do after all the fuss about Russian interference in the 2016 elections.

I'm not going to argue that any of that is 100% true because it's still being investigated, but Trump's, bizarre lawyer, Giuliani really isn't helping the effort to counter the accusation. In any case, it get's back to your point. All this commotion over Trump's antics, proven or not is resulting in a very real loss of trust, by an ever increasing majority of Americans.

Trump's base can cling to the idea that he's a victim of the media, but most Americans don't want a victim for a president either. Personally, I'm getting tired of the president crying everyday that the media is mean to him. People in the media have been trying to discredit presidents for decades - the efforts to discredit Obama were unprecedented. Yet Trump is the only one that seems to be suffering from an inability to rise above it.

So all, conspiracies, fake news and everything else aside... Trump is proving just through his reactions to be a weak, self-pitying, excuse of a man. I understand that for the white nationalists, he seems to represent the first chance they've had to legitimize racist exclusion but my advice to them is to look for a stronger man to champion their disgusting cause, maybe someone who is at least as smart as the previous presidents who didn't fall victim so easily.

As for those who are simply obsessed with hating liberals and seek vengeance in the presidency, I would suggest they get over it. There are real problems to solve and if they don't like the approach liberals are taking then they can do much better by coming up with constructive alternatives instead of insults and sabotage.
Go to
Sep 22, 2019 10:26:18   #
Seth wrote:
I'm still waiting for your explanation for Obama's exchange with Medvedev and its obvious meaning. If you have no comment on that, as you pointedly make clear, it invalidates anything else you might spew for the simple reason that it demonstrates a profound double standard on your part.

I don't recall any prior mention of Obama's exchange with Medvedev in our discussion. May be you're confusing me with someone else.

As far as I know, The Obama–Medvedev Commission was a highly-visible discourse between two nations designed to improve their relations which had been deteriorating for some time. The communication involved entire teams of dignitaries and the commission even had a mission statement for crying out loud stating the very purpose of the commission as "identifying areas of cooperation and pursuing joint projects and actions that strengthen strategic stability, international security, economic well-being, and the development of ties between the Russian and American people."

So this would seem to be a poor example of secrecy Seth. Yes, the meaning *is* obvious... It was intentionally obvious... as in NOT secretive.

So I really don't understand your point. If you have some conspiracy theory about this, why don't you explain it to me BEFORE you start accusing me of intentionally ignoring something I am not aware of?

Seth wrote:

This in turn indicates that any effort to answer anything else in your post would be an unmitigated waste of time.

Then do something else Seth. There's no point in getting yourself all wound up because you can't counter my logic or force me to agree with your BS.

Seth wrote:

The single-mindeness of a leftist in any discourse is an entirely predictable phenomenon. 😎

I really think that depends on the subject matter. I've had plenty of debates with leftists and succeeded in getting them to reconsider their view points and as a leftist myself I have also reconsidered my own view points on numerous occasions as a consequence of debate.

I think there's a swath of people on the right (and it's on the left as well) that cling tenaciously to their assertions despite all arguments, logic and evidence and for THOSE people, yes - the debates tend to be predictable.
Go to
Sep 22, 2019 09:39:44   #
eagleye13 wrote:
"LOL - call it whatever you want... they way I see it, you're just frustrated that you can't stand up to the argument." - straightUp

The way you see it?!
The frustration I see daily is from the Left.
Losing is a bitch!

America is winning!
That seems to be hard to swallow on the Left.


I can't help you with your delusion eagle. Sorry.
Go to
Sep 22, 2019 09:37:21   #
Rose42 wrote:
You do whether you realize it or not. Its man's nature to rebel against God. Everyone does it.

Well, that's a nice way of collecting all the disputes and non-believers into a one-size fits all validation of God, but I can do the exact same thing and say it's man's nature to pretend to know things that he doesn't.
Go to
Sep 22, 2019 09:29:15   #
bylm1-Bernie wrote:
You all might want to read the first chapter of the gospel of John. It gives some "light" to this subject.

It's been a long time since I've read the Bible my friend so I probably forgot the "light" you are referring to. So let me just ask - is it a logical explanation that we can verify through some experiment, in which case I will dedicate the time to re-read it, or is it just another story about the creation of the universe, in which case I won't be so compelled?

Please bear in mind that I don't think something is true just because it's in the Bible. Human history has literally spun thousands of elaborate stories about the origin of the universe. Choosing to believe the story according to John is no more valid that choosing to believe the story that Ra, the sun god, rose from a lotus flower and gave light to the universe, or that Tepeu the maker and Gucumatz the feathered spirit created the world with their thoughts, just to cite the Egyptian and Mayan stories of creation.
Go to
Sep 22, 2019 09:06:20   #
Rose42 wrote:
That is also something our finite minds fight against.

Speak for yourself... I don't have a problem imagining it nor suggesting it's possibility. What I take issue with are people who get so militant when people so much as question it.
Go to
Page: <<prev 1 ... 324 325 326 327 328 329 330 331 332 ... 746 next>>
OnePoliticalPlaza.com - Forum
Copyright 2012-2024 IDF International Technologies, Inc.