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Does taking children away from mthers arms make America great again?
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Jun 20, 2018 14:57:59   #
straightUp Loc: California
 
Loki wrote:
They can go to a Port of Entry. If they are not already criminals prohibited entry, they can request asylum all day long.

No they can't! Did you not read my post? They are being sent back without a hearing as per the new TRUMP policies. This is a NEW change in policy - you need to update your information.
https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/d35vxm/sessionss-new-rules-mean-asylum-seekers-could-be-sent-back-to-die

Or, I suppose you can continue to deny, deflect and distract... in which case arguing this with you is a pointless waste of time.

American Virtue vs American Bigotry!

We all know which side you're on Loki. I just hope you don't push things so far that you wind up like your predecessors.


Reply
Jun 20, 2018 15:08:04   #
Wolf counselor Loc: Heart of Texas
 
straightUp wrote:
Thank's for the compliment and yes, I do love them which is has a lot to do with WHY I am fighting Trump. Whether my conclusions are correct or not, I believe Trump is causing harm to our beloved country and to the future of my children. My wife and I have raised our children to stand up for liberty and justice and today they are both involved in the fight which is not limited to expressing opinions on social media. My daughter is starting law school and we are both writing for publications with a wider audience, not to mention letters to our representatives. My son and I are both involved in open-source projects for developing systems to improve political transparency and resist censorship. Of course we all vote and we all read... a lot ;)

I'm sorry we don't agree on Trump, but I hope we can agree that as citizens, it's our duty to protect our republic from threats as we see them.
Thank's for the compliment and yes, I do love them... (show quote)



So you say that you're "fighting Trump" are you ?

Good luck with that pilgrim.

16 seasoned republicans fought against Trump and they are all sitting on the losers bench right along with the Clinton Pig and old man Sanders.

They were powerful people yet they went down in a heap of smoking Ash.

So I don't see that you stand much of a chance "fighting Trump".

I would suggest that you enjoy your life and not waste your time on futile efforts.

Trump is a conquerer and you're just a mild mannered family man.

That's what America needs more of right now.

Good law abiding, productive American families.

Reply
Jun 20, 2018 15:20:02   #
Morgan
 
Loki wrote:
I am not defending Trump. He doesn't need any defense. The law has been on the books since W was president. As a matter of fact, illegals and their kids have been separated since the nineties. It is receiving the publicity now because thanks to liberal snake oil salesmen, the illegals think they will get asylum and there has been a more than 1000% increase in the number of people. I suppose you think that is Trump's fault also?


The pictures you're speaking of were of 2014 but not of anything I referenced to. You've pointed out Bush's law, can you be more specific looking back there are many acts since the beginning of his presidency of 2000 to 2007. in reading the Comprehensive Immigration Reform Act of 2007 I found nothing on separating children from parents.

I really don't know how you say this considering Sessions had very deliberately delivered a speech on getting tougher with immigrants and therefore enforcing this separation as a device to deter the migration into the US. It was live, I head it, did you?

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Jun 20, 2018 15:24:49   #
Loki Loc: Georgia
 
straightUp wrote:
The reason why it's getting more attention now because of the way Trump is handling the situation. Under Bush and Obama, the process was swift and families were reunited ASAP. Under Trump, the deportation rate has actually decreased while the arrest rate has increased. This confirms a bottleneck which many of us have reason to suspect is tied to the private sector prisons being used. Another difference is that neither Bush nor Obama lost track of where the children went. Under Trump, roughly 2000 children have been lost. But the difference that really makes this a headline story is the attitude from the administration which shifted from child separation being an unfortunate effect that should be minimized to being an intentional strategy.

Also, it shouldn't be THAT difficult to see how this is only part of a bigger story which is verging close to a civil war that is dividing the nation. Americans are falling into two sides... One side (about 25% of America) is hostile to immigrants. These people (many of which are white supremacists) push for laws such as Trumps travel bans to make more immigrants illegal, which in their mind justifies their hostility. They spend their time, looking for worst case scenarios to apply to all "illegal" immigrants as a stereotype. Disgusting. The other side (about 68% of America) is defending the American traditions of liberty and justice for all such as what we see inscribed on the Statue of Liberty.

Most of us DO understand that children get separated from their parents when their parents break the law and it's a bit annoying when our opponents keep drilling that as if it isn't obvious. It's even more annoying when they can't get past the obvious to arrive at the less obvious points we are making. It's like we're in the 3rd quarter of a football game and some guy on the team keeps insisting that we're playing football. That's how stupid it is. Yes, we know that children get separated from parents that break the law, but there are cases where the law itself needs to be reconsidered. Obama asked Congress repeatedly to do this but Congress decided instead to sit on their hands. So he enacted DACA as a temporary measure to protect the sanctity of family pending Congressional action. Trump came in with an attack on that protection from the very start. So this is not a new thing and after a year and a half of Trump I think people are pretty clear on what's going on.

This is nothing less than American virtue vs American bigotry. Plain and f'king simple.
The reason why it's getting more attention now bec... (show quote)


"Another difference is that neither Bush nor Obama lost track of where the children went."

According to the NY Times, over 4000 of these children were "misplaced" in 2016. Guess who was president then? I do wish you would stop being so disingenuous with your prevarications.
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/28/us/trump-immigrant-children-lost.html

As for your "intentional strategy," Since when is enforcing a law passed by a previous Administration wrong?
One more time... the deportation rate has not decreased, the unique way of counting them that was only used by Obama has been changed. Had other Administrations kept track of deportations the way Obama did, his Administration would have been in last place.
Obama enacted DACA (of doubtful legality) to score political points. No other reason.
I have no idea where you get your "polls" but most Americans are fed up with wetbacks and their crimes. Even the non-violent crimes of identity theft have a serious impact on US citizens. You should show more concern about the more than 8000 illegals convicted of violent crimes that your boy Obama turned loose back onto American streets. Guess how many showed up for their deportation hearings?
It would appear that your boy Obama "lost" at least 4100 children and at least 8000 violent adult offenders. But you are mad at Bush and still worship the halo you imagine encircles your idol's head.
So your version of "American Virtue" (people who agree with you) and "American Bigotry" (people who don't) is as follows: Barack Obama could and can do no wrong. His "losing" at least 4100 children is a hiccup, whereas Trump "losing" a fourth that many, ( and many were unaccompanied minors in the first place) is a crime against humanity.
Glad we got that straight, Straight.

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Jun 20, 2018 15:35:59   #
Morgan
 
Loki wrote:
I am not defending Trump. He doesn't need any defense. The law has been on the books since W was president. As a matter of fact, illegals and their kids have been separated since the nineties. It is receiving the publicity now because thanks to liberal snake oil salesmen, the illegals think they will get asylum and there has been a more than 1000% increase in the number of people. I suppose you think that is Trump's fault also?


No, I don't think that as Trump's fault but how he'll handle it will be. As I posted before this is a crisis from these people migrating here and needs to be addressed, just as we addressed the Nuclear issues with N.Korea or the issue with Crimea and other issues around the world.

Yes, we can simply close our doors and let them stay in Mexico, that is actually better than dividing families or sending immigrants to jail on our dollar. Unless this is the Trumps administrations new method of slave labor. The US jail system has become more and more privatized, but that's a whole other topic to argue about...lol

To really have a valid argument here we'd have to have a lot more information on the table, as far as the laws and their explicit definitions and to be able to view all the terms and conditions. One example is unaccompanied child and children with guardians, criminal and non-criminals, second offenders and so on. There's even a clause and exceptions on where they are coming from, so, for now, we're only going by the policy of separating families.

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Jun 20, 2018 15:40:36   #
Loki Loc: Georgia
 
straightUp wrote:
No they can't! Did you not read my post? They are being sent back without a hearing as per the new TRUMP policies. This is a NEW change in policy - you need to update your information.
https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/d35vxm/sessionss-new-rules-mean-asylum-seekers-could-be-sent-back-to-die

Or, I suppose you can continue to deny, deflect and distract... in which case arguing this with you is a pointless waste of time.

American Virtue vs American Bigotry!

We all know which side you're on Loki. I just hope you don't push things so far that you wind up like your predecessors.

No they can't! Did you not read my post? They are ... (show quote)


Interesting picture. I know where it came from. It was taken by Matthew Brady, a Union Army photographer. Union losses at this battle were considerably higher than Confederate. You really wouldn't expect propaganda pictures from a Union Army photographer to show that, would you?

Unfortunately, there were no photographers at Breed's Hill, or at the Battle of New Orleans. If there were I could post pictures of dead redcoats and hope that you don't push things too far and end up like YOUR ancestors.
For your information, President Bush just signed an executive order ending the practice of separating kids from their families, You know, the one that Clinton, Bush and Obama all followed, too? Now your little darlings can enjoy all the delights of incarceration in an adult facility. Happy now?

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Jun 20, 2018 15:52:39   #
Morgan
 
Loki wrote:
Interesting picture. I know where it came from. It was taken by Matthew Brady, a Union Army photographer. Union losses at this battle were considerably higher than Confederate. You really wouldn't expect propaganda pictures from a Union Army photographer to show that, would you?

Unfortunately, there were no photographers at Breed's Hill, or at the Battle of New Orleans. If there were I could post pictures of dead redcoats and hope that you don't push things too far and end up like YOUR ancestors.
For your information, President Bush just signed an executive order ending the practice of separating kids from their families, You know, the one that Clinton, Bush and Obama all followed, too? Now your little darlings can enjoy all the delights of incarceration in an adult facility. Happy now?
Interesting picture. I know where it came from. It... (show quote)


President Bush?

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Jun 20, 2018 16:03:24   #
Loki Loc: Georgia
 
Morgan wrote:
President Bush?

Crap, I'm busted. Trump. Thanks for the catch. I was talking to my wife and granddaughter at the same time I was typing.

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Jun 20, 2018 17:44:29   #
Morgan
 
Loki wrote:
Crap, I'm busted. Trump. Thanks for the catch. I was talking to my wife and granddaughter at the same time I was typing.


Hey, that'll do it, we'll let you slide this time, I mean you're only human right?

Reply
Jun 20, 2018 17:44:40   #
straightUp Loc: California
 
Loki wrote:
Interesting picture. I know where it came from. It was taken by Matthew Brady, a Union Army photographer. Union losses at this battle were considerably higher than Confederate.

Makes no difference the Confederacy still lost.

Loki wrote:

You really wouldn't expect propaganda pictures from a Union Army photographer to show that, would you? Unfortunately, there were no photographers at Breed's Hill, or at the Battle of New Orleans. If there were I could post pictures of dead redcoats and hope that you don't push things too far and end up like YOUR ancestors.

1812 wasn't a war about liberating people from racial injustice, so you're missing the point. 1812 was about defending Canada from American attacks and the British succeeded in doing so. In fact they kicked ass all the way to the White House and burned it down. They forced Jefferson to sign an agreement not to attack Canada anymore, after which all captured territories were returned. That's when the U.S. decided to attack Mexico instead. New Orleans was fought a few days AFTER the war was already over because of poor communication, but it was one of the few victories for Americans and it's the only battle most Americans ever hear about. Technically, that was the first war the U.S. lost. Of course we Americans can't ever accept defeat, so like Vietnam, we prefer not to talk about it. Kinda like how we hate soccer because we suck at it.

Loki wrote:

For your information, President Bush just signed an executive order ending the practice of separating kids from their families, You know, the one that Clinton, Bush and Obama all followed, too? Now your little darlings can enjoy all the delights of incarceration in an adult facility. Happy now?

Families weren't separated under Clinton because immigration wasn't being enforced. Bush was the one who started pushing enforcement after 9/11 but like I said, it was minimized. Obama went as far as expanding "family detention centers" to keep families together. So really, it was only Trump that created such a dramatic crises for children and yes I heard... It's good to know that Trump is capable of crumpling under pressure. Maybe we won't have to kill him. ;)

Reply
Jun 20, 2018 17:51:41   #
Morgan
 
Wolf counselor wrote:
So you say that you're "fighting Trump" are you ?

Good luck with that pilgrim.

16 seasoned republicans fought against Trump and they are all sitting on the losers bench right along with the Clinton Pig and old man Sanders.

They were powerful people yet they went down in a heap of smoking Ash.

So I don't see that you stand much of a chance "fighting Trump".

I would suggest that you enjoy your life and not waste your time on futile efforts.

Trump is a conquerer and you're just a mild mannered family man.

That's what America needs more of right now.

Good law abiding, productive American families.
So you say that you're "fighting Trump" ... (show quote)


One thing I'll give Trump, he knew what the party wanted when campaigning because he listened to their outcries and gave it right back to them and they ate it up hook line and sinker and still do.

Reply
 
 
Jun 20, 2018 18:55:06   #
Carol Kelly
 
no propaganda please wrote:
No, absolutely not, do not take the babies away from their mothers. Send both the mother and her children back where they came from, ILLEGALLY after all. For those who were children years ago when they came here, but are now adults, send them back as adults to the country of origin. On the other hand, if they have committed a crime since getting here, then punishment and then deportation should be mandatory. Stop with this world without borders B*S which is, in reality a part of the Soviet one world under communism promotion, in its current stealth form.
No, absolutely not, do not take the babies away fr... (show quote)


So true. And I fear we are fighting a losing battle. It terrifies me for future generations.
The border should have been closed long, long ago.

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Jun 20, 2018 19:02:07   #
TexaCan Loc: Homeward Bound!
 
Wolf counselor wrote:
You got that right.

That heifer is a looker, ain't she ?


More like a jersey milk ๐Ÿฎ cow ! And........itโ€™s been a couple of decades or 3 or 4 since she even thought about being an innocent young heifer! ๐Ÿ˜‚ ๐Ÿ˜ LOL !!! Bless her little heart โ™ฅ๏ธ!

Reply
Jun 20, 2018 20:10:29   #
Loki Loc: Georgia
 
Morgan wrote:
The pictures you're speaking of were of 2014 but not of anything I referenced to. You've pointed out Bush's law, can you be more specific looking back there are many acts since the beginning of his presidency of 2000 to 2007. in reading the Comprehensive Immigration Reform Act of 2007 I found nothing on separating children from parents.

I really don't know how you say this considering Sessions had very deliberately delivered a speech on getting tougher with immigrants and therefore enforcing this separation as a device to deter the migration into the US. It was live, I head it, did you?
The pictures you're speaking of were of 2014 but n... (show quote)


You found nothing because the practice has been going on since the nineties. The current separation law stems from that. It was apparently not addressed in the 2007 Act. At any rate, every president since Clinton has used this practice. Trump used it more because the previous Administrations were not faced with a 1000 percent plus surge in asylum seekers, fueled by pro-illegal groups who need a sacrificial lamb. These people are fed bullshit stories about beating the system by claiming asylum and are not told that their claim will probably not be recognized.

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Jun 20, 2018 20:19:33   #
Loki Loc: Georgia
 
straightUp wrote:
Families weren't separated under Clinton because immigration wasn't being enforced. Bush was the one who started pushing enforcement after 9/11 but like I said, it was minimized. Obama went as far as expanding "family detention centers" to keep families together. So really, it was only Trump that created such a dramatic crises for children and yes I heard... It's good to know that Trump is capable of crumpling under pressure. Maybe we won't have to kill him. ;)


Actually, the main impetus of the War of 1812 was the British practice of impressing American seamen. Your ancestors also scored quite a few free American blacks who refused to serve and died in British prisons. I'll bet you're really proud of that one.
By the way, according to Encyclopedia Britannica,

So effective, in fact, were the earthworks and barricades of cotton bales with which the Americans had fortified their position that the fighting lasted only half an hour. The British suffered 2,037 casualties (291 killed, 1,262 wounded, and 484 captured) in the mere thirty minutes, including the death of Pakenham and many officers; the Americans suffered only 13 dead, 39 wounded, and 19 captured.

The British kicked ass as long as they had no real opposition. The American defeats in Canada were more a result of incompetent idiots commanding the US forces than any skill on the part of the Brits and Canadians.

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