jack sequim wa Loc: Blanchard, Idaho

Your missing the big picture.

What is the overall accross America growth rate, expansion rate.

The focus is HD jobs 800, yet stand back and see the hundreds of thousands through business growth and expansion.

Why do some think corporate buyback and investor profits are a bad thing. When it only strengthens HD's long term financial position?

buffalo Loc: Texas

The focus is the overall US growth/expansion rate? Then why are so may employed people still dependent on social assistance? Could it be that their wages for the bottom 60% have been stagnate for the last 40 years? The economy always looks good for those at the top. Ever notice no matter how bad the economy is for the bottom half of US population those at the top are always doing good. Even under obammy's shitty economic recovery, the top 10% garnered 90% of the income gains. Could it be that those in that 10% are the ones that grease the wheels of Congress to ensure they always prosper, even at the expense of the bottom. Then they and their puppet politicians bitch about entitlement spending and turn around spend a TRILLION of taxpayer money on continual, illegal, unConstitutional, immoral warmongering that just happens to be an entitlement of 100s of BILLIONS to their military industrial corporate puppet masters.

Blade_Runner Loc: DARK SIDE OF THE MOON

Vox??? Oh, boy. Some people just can't help themselves, can they?

NYT (Archive): The Reagan Boom - Greatest Ever

Almost everyone knows that the greatest depression the U.S. ever had was in the 1930's. It was known as the Great Depression, and its infamy merits a separate section in economics textbooks. But what was its counterpart? When did our greatest economic expansion occur?

We just had it. And it is still expanding, setting new records with each passing month.

We don't know whether historians will call it the Great Expansion of the 1980's or Reagan's Great Expansion, but we do know from official economic statistics that the seven year period from 1982 to 1989 was the greatest, consistent burst of economic activity ever seen in the U.S. In fact, it was the greatest economic expansion the world has ever seen - in any country, at any time.

The two key measures that mark a depression or expansion are jobs and production. Let's look at the records that were set. Creation of jobs. From November 1982, when President Ronald Reagan's new economic program was beginning to take effect, to November 1989, 18.7 million new jobs were created. It was a world record: Never before had so many jobs been created during a comparable time period. The new jobs covered the entire spectrum of work, and more than half of them paid more than $20,000 a year. As total employment grew to 119.5 million, the rate of unemployment fell to slightly over 5 percent, the lowest level in 15 years. Creation of wealth.

The amount of wealth produced during this seven year period was stupendous - some $30 trillion worth of goods and services. Again, it was a world record. Never before had so much wealth been produced during a comparable period. According to a recent study, net asset values - including stocks, bonds and real estate - went up by more than $5 trillion between 1982 and 1989, an increase of roughly 50 percent.

There are other important measures. Steady economic growth. As we begin the decade of the 1990's, we are in our 86th straight month of economic growth - a new record for peacetime, five months longer than the wartime growth of World War II and only 23 months short of the wartime record set during the Vietnam War in the 1960's. Most experts now predict that it will last right through 1990, and perhaps beyond.

Income tax rates, interest rates and inflation.

Under President Reagan, top personal income tax rates were lowered dramatically, from 70 percent to 28 percent. This policy change was the prime force behind the record breaking economic expansion. Interest rates and inflation also fell sharply and, so far, have stayed comfortably low - a further indication of the power and pervasiveness of Mr. Reagan's economic policies. The stock market. Perhaps the key indicator of an economy's booms and busts is the stock market, the bottom line economic report card. And here the record has been striking. During the period from 1970 to 1982, the stock market barely moved. The Standard & Poor's index of 500 stocks inched up about 35 percent during that entire period. But starting in late 1982, just as Reaganomics began to work, the stock market took off like a giant skyrocket. Since then, the Standard & Poor's index has soared, reaching a record high of 360, almost triple what it was in 1982.

There were other consequences of the expansion. Annual Federal spending on public housing and welfare, and on Social Security, Medicare and health all increased by billions of dollars. The poverty rate has fallen steadily since 1983.

When you add up the record of the Reagan years, and the first year of President Bush - during which he has faithfully continued Mr. Reagan's economic policies - the conclusion is clear, inescapable and stunning. We have just witnessed America's Great Expansion.

The Reagan economic expansion was not perfect and we will never have one that is. The Federal budget deficits were too high and still are, too many Federal regulations lay unreformed and the trade deficit is worrisome.

In fact, the Reagan expansion may not have been the best economic expansion in history, for every economic expansion must be judged by many criteria. But if we look at the sheer size and immensity of it, at its scope and power, then it cannot be denied that it was the greatest.

The full impact of the powerful economic recovery that President Reagan launched during the 1980s is still unfolding.

Mr. Reagan's expansion provided the financial resources to allow the U.S. to build up the combat capability of its defense forces and to begin blazing the new trail for a protective missile system. This, in turn, convinced the Soviet rulers they could never defeat the U.S., and today the Soviet Union and the U.S. are busily engaged in nuclear disarmament as peace breaks out in country after country throughout the world.

Equally important, it proved beyond doubt to all (except perhaps for a handful of left-wing faculty members in our best universities) that capitalism is superior to Socialism and Communism. Our economy is the guiding beacon for all those countries that are ripping apart the ruthless collectivist regimes that ruined the lives of their people for so long.

One thing the Marxists got right: Economics is a powerful determining factor of history. But Marxists never dreamed it would be the economics of Ronald Reagan and all those capitalists that would prevail in the end.

son of witless

My point is you do not seem to have a clue how free enterprise works. I too have been a " typical working-class investor ". I invest quite aggressively in my 401k to build up my retirement. For you to cite Harley-Davidson and act like them taking care of their investors is a bad thing seems ridiculous. Harley's problem is selling motorcycles. They must also take care of their stock holders. I don't know what their basic problem is, but it ain't tax cuts or Donald J. Trump.

Unless they find ways to compete better against other motorcycle companies, it does not matter what President Trump does. They will continue to close plants if they cannot figure it out. My problem with your comments is you launched into the typical leftwing Management verses labor warfare.

America is in economic wars against countries like China, Japan, Germany, and South Korea where Government, Management, and Labor are all in a love fest partnership against American companies where Government, Management, and Labor all happily cut each other's throats. Heads they win, tails we lose.

President Trump is the first American President to tell our competitors that America is no longer their patsy. He openly tells other countries that finally we have a President who is not afraid to put American companies and jobs on the table. Stop screwing us or else. He knows what every other President seems to have forgotten. The American market is the richest in the world. Play fair or sell your crap somewhere else. Trump is now playing the game the way they do. They sell here and protect their companies and jobs from us. They do not like when it is done to them.

JFlorio Loc: Seminole Florida

Insults directly get u a timeout. You just bloviate Typical lefty.

straightUp Loc: California

Good point about the CPI... A lot of folks don't understand how the government cherry picks the stats, the CPI is one of the worst examples of omission by leaving out the price of food and energy. I think Peter Schiff explains it pretty well in his book Crash Proof. To be honest, I don't think the trumpy droids really have a clue. For them it all seems to come down to the source. As long as the stats are being announced by conservatives, it's gospel. Otherwise, it's questionable.

Record breaking levels in stock buybacks against a backdrop of barely noticeable wage increases are a clear indication of where the tax savings are going, but the responses from the right have so far amounted to baseless insults and myopic attacks on the example rather than an assessment of the issue.

I've also noticed a complete unwillingness on their part to consider the fact that the tax cuts are only temporary. I guess this is one of those "don't look at it and it won't be real" kind of things for them.

straightUp Loc: California

So you insult others behind their backs to avoid a timeout?


I'm not going to apologize for writing beyond your reading level J. If you have questions you can always ask.

jack sequim wa Loc: Blanchard, Idaho

Who doesn't know? 3% medium income increase is Huge!!!
Price of food and energy has not been included for decades, therefore any increase/decrease in CPI quarterly, annually can be significant.
I agree that government reporting is "highly" unreliable, and many administration's adjust methodology to reflect a more positive public opinion. As you are aware that 4 changes in government accounting have taken place since the 1920's with three being significant adjustments. Using the same accounting of the 1920's that determines the great depression vs our current day great "recession", if we used that methodology our 2008/09 was greater than the great depression.
Interested in a more factual understanding of the complex dynamics of America's economy, I suggest to even those in the "Know"
Shadowstats.com they have accurately forecast the last few decades with eerie accuracy. They cover every domestic factor, but then extend in detail global dynamics intertwined with our economic engine. To my knowledge there is not a better source in understanding micro and macro economics not found in our halls of higher learning.

Radiance3

==================
I would not believe your FAKE news, unless an independent CPA would provide analysis of the corporate situation, and how its business projections present. I just don't rely on liberal news forecasts anybody else's dumb analysis and projection of a business condition. It must be proven, with facts, future independent analysis not with liberal political dumb assessment who hates president Trump. Disgusting!

Currently our overall economy is doing great. The Gross Domestic Product is at 3% which is gearing to a high of 4% toward the end of this year, according to Sec. of Treasury Mnuchin. Overall, most people work, they produce, and pay taxes to the Federal Government. During the dumb Obama years, most of them are handouts, on welfare and food stamps. We spend hundreds of billions of dollars feeding them. Now, they produce and contribute to the system instead of feeding them.

Current unemployment is at its lowest at 3.9%, blacks at 6.7%, and Hispanics went down as well. Asians have always lowest unemployment rate. Most of them work, and have reached college level degrees, or higher. Next to Whites, Asians have the most educated population in the US.

straightUp Loc: California

It's not much of a point if you can't explain it.


I never said taking care of their investors is a bad thing. Once again, you're arguing with your own misconceptions about what I'm actually saying. Besides, Harley-Davidson didn't have to buy $700 million in shares just to "take care of their investors".


If you don't know what their basic problem IS, how do you know what it ISN'T?

You really aren't putting the pieces together, are you? You keep trying to portray Harley-Davidson as a company struggling with sales (I guess thinking it will somehow excuse the layoffs) while completely missing the fact that they just spent $700 million on stock buybacks. Do you not see the irony here?


No, witless YOU did. You just automatically assumed that was my argument. It's too bad because you totally missed the point I was actually making which has nothing to do with the classic "management vs labor" argument. To be clear, I am not blaming Fatass or his tax policy for the job cuts. I did point out that the tax policy didn't SAVE the jobs like Trump was suggesting they would, but that's not the same thing as blaming his policy FOR the job cuts.


I don't think "America" is "in economic wars" against other countries. I know that's what your fat-daddy wants you to think because it makes his trade wars appear "patriotic" but I would have thought with all your massive knowledge about free-enterprise, you would know a little more about how globally integrated our economy really is. For instance, when your dreamy white knight slapped tariffs on steel and aluminum imports, he injured the American aerospace industry as a consequence by making their materials more expensive.


That's because America never was their patsy. That's just the strawman Dickless Donny set up so he can pretend to be attacking something. It's no different from his MAGA bullshit which is predicated on the lie that America is so much less than it really is. When politicians can't fix real problems they need to create fake ones so at least it looks like they can.


Again, that would make more sense if the world markets were still contained within national bubbles like they were in Imperial Age, but that just isn't true anymore. This thing called globalization happened. You should Google that. Something else you should note as you learn that have moved into the 21 century is that the European consumer market is actually very close behind us now and a new Eurasian market is being established with countries like China, India and Russia. Either of these two markets could easily take over the lead within a few years and the Republicans with their constant pressure to suppress wages and limit government subsidies will only accelerate the process as Americans find their purchasing power diminishing by the day.


Witless... that's a very old game and we've been playing it for decades, so it's not like Trump is really doing anything new. it's just that his recklessness is drawing a lot of concern and criticism which puts the spotlight on the issue so the clueless people can actually see it for the first time (and of course praise the Great Donny for being the only president that they've noticed being a protectionist.

straightUp Loc: California

What I presented WAS fact... The 800 lost jobs are not someone's opinion, nor are they a projection. The $700 million in stock buybacks are also fact. A company can't lay off 800 workers or buy back $700 million of it's own stock without leaving a trail of public records. These facts are recorded by the Labor Department, the Securities Exchange Commission and the IRS. Just because Vox cited these facts doesn't mean they invented them.

Sometimes I forget what subscribers you people are. Instead of using you own brains to assess what a news source is presenting, you just identify the source as liberal or conservative and believe or disbelieve accordingly. This would explain your dismissal of the story as "FAKE news" based on it's source before you even gave yourself a chance to understand what is actually being said. Heck, I didn't even know Vox was considered "liberal".


See, this is how I know how clueless you are... None of the points I made have ANY bearing on ANYTHING you just stated. I didn't say the economy was stagnant, I didn't say unemployment was high. Do you even know what I said? Or did everything just blank out when you saw what I said about your POS president?

son of witless

" It's not much of a point if you can't explain it. "

I gave you an explanation. I cannot give you an understanding of what I said.

" I never said taking care of their investors is a bad thing. Once again, you're arguing with your own misconceptions about what I'm actually saying. Besides, Harley-Davidson didn't have to buy $700 million in shares just to "take care of their investors". "

Their investors are the owners. They are in business to reward their shareholders. When they fail to do that they are out of business. If they chose to buy $ 700M in shares, that is their business.

" If you don't know what their basic problem IS, how do you know what it ISN'T? "

I see I failed to make myself clear, my mistake. I do not know why they have suffered a decline in sales. I do not ride motorcycles. That however is their basic problem.

" You really aren't putting the pieces together, are you? You keep trying to portray Harley-Davidson as a company struggling with sales (I guess thinking it will somehow excuse the layoffs) while completely missing the fact that they just spent $700 million on stock buybacks. Do you not see the irony here? "

WHAT ? ? ? ? Do you think that a company struggling with sales should not do a $ 700 M buy back ? Is that your IRONY ?

" To be clear, I am not blaming Fatass or his tax policy for the job cuts. I did point out that the tax policy didn't SAVE the jobs like Trump was suggesting they would, but that's not the same thing as blaming his policy FOR the job cuts. "

So if the Trump tax cuts fail to save jobs at even one company, then they are a failure ? Gezz ole Willockers you are a tough hombre.

" I don't think "America" is "in economic wars" against other countries. I know that's what your fat-daddy wants you to think because it makes his trade wars appear "patriotic" but I would have thought with all your massive knowledge about free-enterprise, you would know a little more about how globally integrated our economy really is. For instance, when your dreamy white knight slapped tariffs on steel and aluminum imports, he injured the American aerospace industry as a consequence by making their materials more expensive. "

Just because you " don't think "America" is "in economic wars" against other countries " does not make what you think correct. WTF does " how globally integrated our economy really is " have to do with anything ? ? ? The Chinese along with the rest of our trading partners take screwing America over on trade very seriously. President Trump is the first pro American Trade President of the post WW2 era. A lot of what has gone on had to do with America taking care of nations like
W. Germany and Japan during the Cold War because they had lost their traditional markets. Then when China was opened up we allowed them to screw us on trade so as to engage them peacefully and to take advantage of cheap Chinese labor. In the post Cold War World, those strategies are killing us and Trump is discontinuing them.

As far as steel and aluminum go, what do you know about those industries ? I would say less than nothing. Our steel industry and it's jobs have been severely curtailed and our aluminum industry has almost ceased to exist. Do you know why ? Of course you don't. Since you do not have a clue what you think you know I will tell you. China for all of it's great state capitalism is always one economic downturn from revolution. The people have traded middle class prosperity for freedom. The Communist Dictators must at all costs keep their people working. Busy hands are happy hands. If they become idle they might look around and see the pollution and internment camps and decide the Communist Party sucks.

The American Aerospace Industry is likely being zombiefied as the Chinese steal their secrets so that in 10 to20 years the Chinese can sell them back their products at 10 % of the current price, because that is the Chinese pattern

" That's because America never was their patsy. That's just the strawman Dickless Donny set up so he can pretend to be attacking something. It's no different from his MAGA bullshit which is predicated on the lie that America is so much less than it really is. When politicians can't fix real problems they need to create fake ones so at least it looks like they can. "

I and the people who voted against the Hilly Monstress disagree.

" Again, that would make more sense if the world markets were still contained within national bubbles like they were in Imperial Age, but that just isn't true anymore. This thing called globalization happened. You should Google that. Something else you should note as you learn that have moved into the 21 century is that the European consumer market is actually very close behind us now and a new Eurasian market is being established with countries like China, India and Russia. Either of these two markets could easily take over the lead within a few years and the Republicans with their constant pressure to suppress wages and limit government subsidies will only accelerate the process as Americans find their purchasing power diminishing by the day. "

You sound as if you think you know what you are talking about. " globalization " Such a big boy word. For your information, nation states still exist. They still have national borders and trade barriers. China in particular, but also every other nation you mentioned engage in exporting goods and services as much as possible, while protecting their domestic businesses. Here is another BIG BOY word for you to research. It is called mercantilism. Look it up and report back here.

" Witless... that's a very old game and we've been playing it for decades, so it's not like Trump is really doing anything new. it's just that his recklessness is drawing a lot of concern and criticism which puts the spotlight on the issue so the clueless people can actually see it for the first time (and of course praise the Great Donny for being the only president that they've noticed being a protectionist. "

You are the one who is clueless. For 40 years people have noted the decline of manufacturing in the US and have acted as if it is just the natural evolution of economies. Well it ain't. Yea the Rust Belt is not returning as the Rust Belt, , BUT the way Middle America has been sold down the river by it's federal government and by the coastal effeminate elites is stopping.

If your Young Idiot Barry Soetoro had done exactly what Donald J. Trump is doing you would be singing his praises, but because it is Trump you are busy finding fault.

jack sequim wa Loc: Blanchard, Idaho

Here is some truth in reporting (economic)

http://www.shadowstats.com/article/no-438-public-comment-on-inflation-measurement

Most of the information is free, they charge a subscription fee for their monthly and quarterly forecast.

jack sequim wa Loc: Blanchard, Idaho

Hey pal, he makes good points but then has a spin on others. Perhaps his own hate towards Trump or the material he is reading, authored by Trump haters.

You stated our iron and aluminum (in other words) production was nearly non existent. That was factual. He stated that because of Trumps actions our Aerospace industry would be hurt, which is also factual. But what he misses in the big picture are many things. One being, since 80% of our metals come from China, how hard hit would our aerospace companies be, when China decides to cut off our supply if we don't allow them to take over Taiwan or force their military presence over Japan, or a hundred other reasons I can't think of right now. What would happen to our commercial builders not having steel? What would happen to our infrastructure plans to rebuild, or our auto makers. Then the big one is our military infrastructure, it doesn't take a brain surgeon to know a whole lot of steel is required to produce an aircraft carrier, attack or support ship.
Trump stated how important bringing back our steel industry is, and already new steel plants are opening. Ahead of his steel tariff on China, Trump relaxed regulations that (save the planet liberals put in place) strangled the ability to open more strip mines, and cost burdens on the few operating strip mines in America. Under Trump expect many more once protected government lands to open and begin mining, as well as steel factories opening. What the liberal leftist ignore is steel is every but as important to America as oil independence, something Trump understands. Not to mention the tens of thousands of higher paying jobs, plus the tens of thousands of jobs that will be created to support the industry.

straightUp Loc: California

First of all I'm not "missing" the big picture. I'm pointing out one particular pattern INSIDE the big picture. What you're doing here jack, is your trying to side-step the issue. It's like trying to deny that a patient has colon cancer by pointing out how healthy his other parts are. Well, I'm not talking about the overall health of the economy, jack. I'm talking specifically about the corporate stock buybacks that hit a record $178 billion in the first three months of 2018 while average hourly earnings for American workers are up only 67 cents over the past year.

So far, the knee-jerk responses from the OPP guardians of Trump's eggshell image completely miss this particular trend. All the reactions (not counting insults) fall into only two basic arguments... One is that Harley-Davidson is struggling (which does little to explain their $700 million in buybacks) and the other is that the economy over all is looking good (which has no bearing on the pattern in question).

I'm not actually expecting any real argument here and I'd be surprised of this thread get's past 3 pages. I expect people on the right to abandon the argument like they did with my previous thread about Trump's attacks on working class Americans, when I mentioned the fiduciary rule. None of the Trump supporters had a counter argument, nor did they show any indication that they even understood the issue. They just walked away because they didn't like the conversation.

This is why I am bringing these issues up. Not only to show how little Trump supporters actually understand about what the Trump administration (and the Republican Party) is doing, but how little they care to know. I choose these issues in particular because they are simple enough on their own to make conclusions without involving unproven theories, complicated relations or speculation. I'm not discounting the possibility that I could be wrong either, but so far no one has shown this to be the case. If there is something I am missing it has yet to be mentioned.

I'm not saying there is anything wrong with buybacks either. Buybacks are an effective way to increase the value of shares by reducing the number of shares in the market (supply and demand). The point is that we can't make the assumption that much of the money a company saves from a tax cut will trickle down to the worker which is really the entire premise of the conservative argument that led people to support the tax cut. Noting the record breaking buybacks in contrast to the tiny uptick in wages is a pretty clear indication that more of the tax savings is going to the investors on Wall Street than to the workers on Main Street.

Neither the descriptions of Harley-Davidson as a struggling company or the overall economy as a bull market have any impact on this rather simple conclusion.