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Jun 24, 2017 11:19:46   #
S. Maturin
 
Sicilianthing wrote:
>>>>>>>>

He probably supports the Gas Tax Rip Off in Cali...
He might like Sanctuary cities too
He might be a Federalist and so he's not anti Federalist like us which means the Independent and lefty issues may have gotten to him long ago.

I can go on and on but I have to carefully answer his next reply to me without getting arrested, Ha !

It's a complicated one - most won't entertain.


I was just trailing along trying to see to what depth this guy would actually dig to back up his absurd idea. Imagine thinking turning the USA into fifty (FIFTY SEVEN, if you love Obama) nation states would result in fiddy healthy lill countries all getting along like birds onna wire? The dude is wacko on thais subject, but many here would like to see the CA turn into the world's first floating island and move into the China Sea.. well... there it was.

Reply
Jun 24, 2017 12:10:25   #
Sicilianthing
 
S. Maturin wrote:
I was just trailing along trying to see to what depth this guy would actually dig to back up his absurd idea. Imagine thinking turning the USA into fifty (FIFTY SEVEN, if you love Obama) nation states would result in fiddy healthy lill countries all getting along like birds onna wire? The dude is wacko on thais subject, but many here would like to see the CA turn into the world's first floating island and move into the China Sea.. well... there it was.


>>>>

Noted and the experiment continues.

Reply
Jun 24, 2017 13:05:27   #
straightUp Loc: California
 
S. Maturin wrote:
1/3 of the US Military?! I would like to see some numbers about some claims you have made.

OK, so maybe 1/3 was an exaggeration. Although, I have to say it's not even close to your exaggerations so far, so par for the course. But I did have a point and maybe the exaggeration was a distraction.

So let me make the point without the exaggeration...

Fact: in 2015 California provided $405 billion to the U.S. Treasury. The next largest contribution was from Texas at only $279 billion... This is the money that funds the U.S. military BTW.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_tax_revenue_by_state

If that isn't enough, California also provides the largest number of enlistees to the U.S. military... In 2013 California provided 18,987 enlisted personnel. The next highest number is 16,078 from Texas.
http://www.aei.org/publication/us-military-enlistment-rates-by-state-a-texas-sized-difference/

So the point is, California is the biggest provider to the U.S. military both in terms of personnel and funding. Not to mention a LOT of military technology comes from California. So it's a bit idiotic to suggest that California would loose all that military might. If anything California would take the largest share of it and the remaining U.S. would see a significant loss.

S. Maturin wrote:

There is no way in hell CA could exist for any length of time- months, maybe?- without the military of the USA. It would never be able to raise and support a military capable of even fending off a Mexican move let alone a determined invasion from a real military power.

Get real... You seem to have this delusion where you think the only reason why we aren't being invaded on all sides is because of the size of our military. That's just retarded. I don't see anyone attacking Canada, do you? And yet Canada only has a population of 36.5 billion where California as a population of 39.1 billion. Canada only has a GDP of 1.79 trillion where California has a GDP of 2.31 trillion. So California can easily afford more military than Canada.

Something else to consider... The U.S. military is way overblown with a budget that surpasses the next eight military budgets in the world combined, including Russia and China.

SIPRI Military Expenditure Database: (in $ billions)

US... 611.2
China... 215.7
Russia... 69.2
Saudi Arabia .. 63.7
India... 55.9
France... 55.7
UK... 48.3
Japan... 46.1
Germany... 41.1

If California stopped funding the federal government, we would save $405 billion and could well afford to spend more on defense than ANY of our allies are currently spending and it's worth pointing out that any of these countries are more than capable of defending themselves. The reason why we spend so much more isn't because defense requires it but because the investors in our military-industrial complex want dividends. It's not a matter of defense, it's a matter of business.

So your assertion that California wouldn't last more than a month is an exaggeration to say the least.

Something else to consider...

Four of the six ports that connect the U.S. Interstate system to the Pacific Rim are in California. Almost all Chinese exports go to California, 40% of ALL imports to the U.S. come through the twin ports of Los Angeles and Long Beach. If you understood how liberalism changed the world, you would know that fighting over land resources is largely a thing of the past and that in this 21st century so far, open markets and fluid transactions are the prize. Countries like Mexico and China have more to gain by trading with California than taking it over. One of the few things Bush said that made any sense is that developed democracies don't fight wars against each other. He was basically pointing out the new reality of a global market system.

So, you got your head in the sand if you still think California depends on the U.S. military to avoid invasion.

As for the economy; How about some state numbers as to income and expenditures? I think SanFran could sink the rest of CA economically.
[/quote]
Says the guy with out any numbers...

So in 2016, California spent $514.2 billion (more than any other state, which is all people like you want to hear.) But California also had more income than any other state and in that same year the Gross State Product for California was $2,602.7 billion. In fact, California actually ranks #7 in terms of economic growth rate (2.4%) compared to a state like Texas which has a current growth rate of only 0.9%
http://www.usgovernmentdebt.us/compare_state_spending_2016bF0G

Anything else?

S. Maturin wrote:

I do believe you are a dreamer and quite self-disillusioned in much of what you profess.

I think you're the dreamer... It's pretty clear that I can back up my statements where you don't even make the attempt.

Reply
 
 
Jun 24, 2017 13:24:18   #
S. Maturin
 
straightUp wrote:
I think you're the dreamer... It's pretty clear that I can back up my statements where you don't even make the attempt.


No, yu back up your outlandish claims by using half-truths and deflection.

If, for instance, you think all of CA's tax money goes to the US military and not, for instance to the HUGE entitlement/welfare programs, you are in for a shock.

But, if it was truth you were after, your financial info would have come from the US Government offices releases and not from Wiki.

Anyhow, you are more into agenda and WA statements than pursuit of truth, so-- fuggitabboudit.

Reply
Jun 24, 2017 13:30:34   #
Morgan
 
straightUp wrote:
Thank you Pete... Yeah, I'm already familiar with a lot of what drives people like Sicilian so it's hard not to stereotype, but I have to admit, he seems a lot more considerate than some of his peers.

Even so, this isn't the age of brawn anymore... terrorists have been proving that for a number of years now. These paramilitary folks aren't that different in the sense that they have this unfaltering trust in guns and God. It seems the groups that go the farther have at least some measure of brains and technical abilities. I don't see much of that among the paramilitary groups. Many of them from the military don't understand that if you disconnect the battalion from the intel, they're effectiveness almost completely disappears.

I also think it's a shame that so many people are rushing for the guns before they actually know who their enemies are. For any American in the 99%, Trump *IS* the enemy. So it doesn't matter how tough they think they are or much ammunition they stock, if they can't figure out who the enemy is they're going to loose.
Thank you Pete... Yeah, I'm already familiar with ... (show quote)



Unfortunately they think they have figured it out and it's all American's not on the right, Russians are their friend who only want peace and Trump is their Patriotic Hero, and it's hard to convince them otherwise.

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Jun 24, 2017 13:42:41   #
Morgan
 
straightUp wrote:
I think you're the dreamer... It's pretty clear that I can back up my statements where you don't even make the attempt.


I believe in population's you meant million verses billion, other than that all very good points.

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Jun 24, 2017 14:01:53   #
straightUp Loc: California
 
S. Maturin wrote:
No, yu back up your outlandish claims by using half-truths and deflection.

They are only outlandish to you because it's not what you want to hear... You got some weird hangup where you refuse to accept the truth about California's strength as an economic force. I did quite a bit of research citing 4 separate sources. What have you provided, beside your childish rants? Nothing.

S. Maturin wrote:

If, for instance, you think all of CA's tax money goes to the US military and not, for instance to the HUGE entitlement/welfare programs, you are in for a shock.

Dude... states don't fund federal programs as separate streams. States give lump sums to the federal government and how that money is distributed is up to Washington not the states. It's a big pot into which California dumps the largest pile of cash. If California provides 12% of the federal revenue (which is what that $405 billion works out to) then they are effectively paying for 12% of the military and 12% of the federal welfare programs.)

S. Maturin wrote:

But, if it was truth you were after, your financial info would have come from the US Government offices releases and not from Wiki.

Oh, I see... Now it's the ol' discredit the sources trick. Well, I also used the American Enterprise Institute and the SIPRI Military Expenditures Database and if you bothered to look you would notice that the Wikipedia articles I referenced in this argument are actually passing data from the government sources. I like Wikipedia because of the way it formats the data and the fact that they list their sources.

But I see, you're just grasping at this point. Why don't you read up a little and come back when you have something intelligent to say?

Anyhow, you are more into agenda and WA statements than pursuit of truth, so-- fuggitabboudit.[/quote]
Not sure what a WA statement is, but all I really said is that I would like to see California leave the union. You were the one throwing rocks at the idea. What's the matter? Afraid it might actually happen? Are you in one of those 36 states that take more from the federal government than they put in, making them dependent on California funding? Or are you just one of those morons that like to preserve the illusion that California is a mess for being progressive?

Yeah, maybe it's time to let this one go... Obviously, you can't hold up to my argument and you're probably running out of ways to make "na-uh" look good.

Reply
 
 
Jun 24, 2017 14:21:03   #
Sicilianthing
 
S. Maturin wrote:
No, yu back up your outlandish claims by using half-truths and deflection.

If, for instance, you think all of CA's tax money goes to the US military and not, for instance to the HUGE entitlement/welfare programs, you are in for a shock.

But, if it was truth you were after, your financial info would have come from the US Government offices releases and not from Wiki.

Anyhow, you are more into agenda and WA statements than pursuit of truth, so-- fuggitabboudit.


>>>>>>

Mostly pension obligations etc...

Those reporting the figures have been lying for decades to hide the money,

To hide the

Lies
Wreckage
Trickery n Deceit.

Trump doesn't even trust the figures they're pumping at him day n nite...
He's very skeptical and he wants answers.

Reply
Jun 24, 2017 14:21:18   #
straightUp Loc: California
 
Morgan wrote:
Unfortunately they think they have figured it out and it's all American's not on the right, Russians are their friend who only want peace and Trump is their Patriotic Hero, and it's hard to convince them otherwise.

Unfortunately, many of them grow up with teachers and parents putting more emphasis on loyalty and faith than on critical thinking. Where you and I might discuss the logical aspects of a situation, they are more inclined to simply take sides so it's no longer a discussion of problems and solutions but a matter of "us" vs "them".

Even critical thinking, as a subject of study, is classified by most universities under liberal arts which is on the "wrong side" of their ideological divide.
When Rick Perry, was governor of Texas, he actually pushed for the elimination of liberal arts in Texas schools, using Texas A&M as a pilot. This is one of the defining aspects of the right... the refusal to teach their children the kind of critical thinking that may actually allow them to see the folly of their loyalty.

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Jun 24, 2017 14:22:36   #
straightUp Loc: California
 
Morgan wrote:
I believe in population's you meant million verses billion, other than that all very good points.

Yeah, I did mean millions. :)

Reply
Jun 24, 2017 15:08:59   #
straightUp Loc: California
 
Sicilianthing wrote:
>>>>>>>>

He probably supports the Gas Tax Rip Off in Cali...

Yes, I do. For me, the few extra dollars is worth the cleaner air, which is what that "rip-off" is used for, additional processing for cleaner burning fuel.

Sicilianthing wrote:

He might like Sanctuary cities too

Yes, I do. Sanctuary cities are flipping Trump and his federal government the bird and I LOVE it!

Sicilianthing wrote:

He might be a Federalist and so he's not anti Federalist like us which means the Independent and lefty issues may have gotten to him long ago.

I'm not so sure you actually understand the difference... federalist means you defend the existence of the federal government. Anti-federalists means you don't. It's that simple. It doesn't matter if you want the federal government to be smaller, the point is you still want it to exist. That makes you a federalist. Now, I've called myself an anti-federalist and if you look over my arguments you will see nothing to the contrary. In fact my tangent on California leaving the Union only confirms my anti-federalist leaning.

Favoring independent or liberal perspectives is another issue with no bearing on how federal or anti-federal a person is. I just happen to believe that most progressive ideas like democracy and socialism work better in smaller units and that's a driving force behind my anti-federalism. These systems can work much better in a unit of 39.1 million (population of California) than they could in a unit of 350 million (population of 39.1 million). So for me, the path to a more socially responsible system is to abandon the "federation" and all those leechy red states clinging to our ankles for the money we give them while at the same time biting us for being too generous with our own people. (rolling my eyes)


Sicilianthing wrote:

I can go on and on but I have to carefully answer his next reply to me without getting arrested, Ha !

It's a complicated one - most won't entertain.

Yeah, I caught that when you mentioned it before... It seems you want to impress people with this idea that you have something really big and scary going on. All I know is that you are either doing something illegal or you are pretending too. Look, this site is anonymous, the only links they have is your e-mail, which I assume is itself an anonymous account (it's easy enough to do) and whatever information you reveal in your posts. It's also possible to trace-route the IP traffic to your ISP, which you can also foil by using Tor or some other kind of VPN.

If none of this makes sense to you, then you are either already being tracked or you what you are doing isn't really worth the time and effort it would take the government to find out.

Reply
 
 
Jun 24, 2017 20:48:55   #
Morgan
 
straightUp wrote:
Unfortunately, many of them grow up with teachers and parents putting more emphasis on loyalty and faith than on critical thinking. Where you and I might discuss the logical aspects of a situation, they are more inclined to simply take sides so it's no longer a discussion of problems and solutions but a matter of "us" vs "them".

Even critical thinking, as a subject of study, is classified by most universities under liberal arts which is on the "wrong side" of their ideological divide.
When Rick Perry, was governor of Texas, he actually pushed for the elimination of liberal arts in Texas schools, using Texas A&M as a pilot. This is one of the defining aspects of the right... the refusal to teach their children the kind of critical thinking that may actually allow them to see the folly of their loyalty.
Unfortunately, many of them grow up with teachers ... (show quote)




If you're familiar with this type of mind set where one follows a man devoid of a moral compass and shows loyalty of their party over country, please explain to it to me, these people minds that are so pliable to who they are following while viewing higher education as the vilification. I don't understand it, but to me it mimics what happened to people who blindly followed Hitler.

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Jun 25, 2017 14:54:43   #
straightUp Loc: California
 
Morgan wrote:
If you're familiar with this type of mind set where one follows a man devoid of a moral compass and shows loyalty of their party over country, please explain to it to me, these people minds that are so pliable to who they are following while viewing higher education as the vilification. I don't understand it, but to me it mimics what happened to people who blindly followed Hitler.


It is actually very similar to what happened when people followed Hitler, or Mussolini or Stalin for that matter.

You present a very good question Morgan. I don't think it's so much that their minds are pliable (that would indicate a capacity to learn and adapt). I think it's their lack of mental pliability that so often obstructs their understanding of the world around them and the consequences of what they support. The real catalyst here, I think, is prejudice. Usually, people don't learn about politics until AFTER their prejudices have already been set either by their parents or by their peers, or sometimes a bad experience. When they see politics unfolding, they first choose the side according to their prejudice. And for any side there is going to be a number of people clever enough to make rhetorical excuses for any political move they want to defend. So for the followers, it's a simple matter of subscribing to those excuses, not because they make sense, but because it supports the side they are loyal to, or even more the point it blames the side they are not loyal to.

Hitler, Stalin and Mussolini all rose out of desperate times by appealing to preexisting bigotry agitated by depressed conditions. Trump is essentially doing the same thing. America has been in decline for about 40 years now and people are starting to feel the squeeze. As people so often do when things get bad, they look for blame but rational explanations don't appeal to the uneducated the way amplified bigotry does. There is no doubt that Trump caters to bigotry using sweeping generalizations and such, eliminating the need to explain anything to the point where a clear mind would actually see any value. I can't remember who said this but some writer suggested that fascism is based on broad symbolism rather than a rational assessment of details.

There was an interesting interview on the radio last week with the author of a new book about our divided nation (can't remember the name of the writer or the title of the book) but in his research he discovered that one of the most revealing patterns about Trump supporters is that an overwhelming majority of them have never left their hometowns (aside from vacations and military service). The author was suggesting that it's this lack of interacting with adjacent cultures leads to a myopic mindset.

I think this fits into what I'm saying about taking sides culturally, which can happen in early childhood, before even learning about politics, which requires at least a high school education. (You may have noticed the most persistent bigots on this site tend to write as if they never got past 3rd grade).

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Jun 25, 2017 17:28:32   #
Sicilianthing
 
straightUp wrote:
Yeah, I caught that when you mentioned it before... It seems you want to impress people with this idea that you have something really big and scary going on. All I know is that you are either doing something illegal or you are pretending too. Look, this site is anonymous, the only links they have is your e-mail, which I assume is itself an anonymous account (it's easy enough to do) and whatever information you reveal in your posts. It's also possible to trace-route the IP traffic to your ISP, which you can also foil by using Tor or some other kind of VPN.

If none of this makes sense to you, then you are either already being tracked or you what you are doing isn't really worth the time and effort it would take the government to find out.
Yeah, I caught that when you mentioned it before..... (show quote)


>>>>>>

No deal on the Socialist Bullshit whacko stuff...
no extra fake Unconstitutional taxing without representation
It's a difference of interpretations when you talke sides with the Federalists.
I'm a NAtionalist entering Sovereign Citizenship
I'm not out to impress anyone because I no longer care for that thrill, I'm here to share real information, to expose the perpetrators and encourage others to do the same and more.
No - OPP is not anonymous - many eyes are here watching and reading, WE See YOU !

As for the FED, Authorities and anything that's contrary to what they've been brainwashed with is Illegal in their eyes.

I do Lawful ,
Gods Law
Natural law
Sovereign Law

Not Code or Legal bullshit...

So yes the FED et al is labeled an Opposition Flank by those like me...

Don't get caught in the middle StraightUp when it starts... you'll be taking fire ffrom both sides not just 1.

Good Luck and
Great Post... noted valid points from your angle, but NO DEAL.

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Jun 25, 2017 17:29:00   #
Sicilianthing
 
Morgan wrote:
If you're familiar with this type of mind set where one follows a man devoid of a moral compass and shows loyalty of their party over country, please explain to it to me, these people minds that are so pliable to who they are following while viewing higher education as the vilification. I don't understand it, but to me it mimics what happened to people who blindly followed Hitler.


>>>>>

Bingo !

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