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Do We Go to Heaven When We Die? Where do our souls go?
Mar 10, 2017 10:51:07   #
ziggy88 Loc: quincy illinois 62301
 
By Sam Storms

Researched by Pastor Gary Boyd
Intro & Conclusion by Pastor Boyd

You sure do open a can of worms when you ask the above question. My father called me from the nursing home right before he died and I told him it was time for him to go be with Jesus. I believe I told him the right thing to do and after I said this my sister Dawn said he died. He had the early stages of Parkinson's and dementia was also coming on; he had missed my mother who had died years earlier and was saved when he passed. Sam Storms is an Amillennial, Calvinistic, charismatic, credo-baptistic, complementarian, Christian Hedonist who loves his wife of 44 years, his two daughters, his four grandchildren, books, baseball, movies, and all things Oklahoma University. In 2008 Sam became Lead Pastor for Preaching and Vision at Bridgeway Church in Oklahoma City, Oklahoma. This is his article, what follows is spot on and what I have always believed to be the truth.

Evangelicals Believe
There is a loud chorus of voices these days denouncing, in a somewhat condescending way, the long-standing belief among evangelicals that when Christians die they go to heaven. In one sense, this outcry is good and constructive. It is an understandable and much-needed response to the unbiblical gnosticism of some “fundamentalist” Christians who denigrate material creation, diminish the reality of a future bodily resurrection, and fail to reckon with the centrality in God’s redemptive purpose of the New Heavens and especially the New Earth.
So, is my answer to the question posed in the title, No? Not quite. My answer is: Immediately, Yes. Eternally, No. Or again, to simplify, when a Christian dies he/she immediately passes into the conscious presence of Christ in heaven. But when the day of resurrection arrives, he/she will be given a new and glorified body in the eternal state which all of God’s people will live and flourish on the New Earth (of Revelation 21-22).
What we’re talking about is known as the intermediate state, that period and/or experience of the individual believer between (hence, “intermediate”) the time of physical death and bodily resurrection. The biblical evidence for the intermediate state is unmistakable: see 2 Cor. 5:6-9; Phil. 1:21-24; Luke 16:19-31; Heb. 12:22-24; Rev. 6:9-11 (and perhaps 1 Thess. 4:13-18). Our focus here is 2 Corinthians 5:6-9. But first, a brief word about 2 Corinthians 5:1-5 is in order.

In these verses Paul speaks of his desire to be alive when Christ returns, for then he would not have to die physically and experience the separation of body and spirit, a condition he refers to as being “naked” (v. 3) or “unclothed.” Paul's perspective on life and death may therefore be put in this way: It is good to remain alive on this earth to serve Christ (Phil. 1:21a,22a,24-26). On the other hand, it is better to die physically and enter into the presence of Christ (2 Cor. 5:6-8; Phil. 1:21b,23). However, it is by far and away best to be alive when Christ returns, for then we avoid death altogether and are immediately joined with the Lord in our resurrected and glorified bodies.
According to 2 Cor. 5:3, if the believer remains alive until Christ returns she will be found by the Lord clothed with a body (the present, earthly one), and not in a disembodied state. To be without a body is to be “naked” and thus in a very important sense unnatural and less than ideal. Clearly, Paul envisaged a state of disembodiment between physical death and the general resurrection (cf. “unclothed” in v. 4). Verse 4 I take to be an expanded repetition of v. 2.

We now turn our attention to 2 Corinthians 5:6-9. There Paul writes:
“So we are always of good courage. We know that while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord, for we walk by faith, not by sight. Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord. So whether we are at home or away, we make it our aim to please him” (2 Cor. 5:6-9).
Note first of all the contrast set forth in vv. 6 and 8. The contrast is not primarily between two modes of human existence, as if one is in the body and one out of the body (although this is a valid contrast); nor is the contrast primarily that between two possible relationships to the Lord: one with the Lord and one away from the Lord (although again this is valid enough in itself). Paul's primary contrast is between two successive spheres of Christian residence or existence: now in the body and then with the Lord. The major point, therefore, is that life now in the body is to be followed immediately by life then with Christ.
IN the body = ABSENCE from the Lord
OUT OF the body = PRESENCE with the Lord

Our Soul
As one must be either in or out of his body (for there is no third alternative), so he must either be absent from or present with the Lord (for there is no third alternative). In 2 Cor. 5:1-5 Paul has shown that physical death means the loss of bodily existence. Here he explains what this entails for the Christian. There are but two possible modes of existence for us: if we are physically alive and in our bodies we are absent from Christ, if we die physically and leave our bodies we are present with Christ. The two experiences are mutually exclusive. Departure from mortal corporeality on earth marks the beginning of residence with the Lord in heaven, that is if you are a believer.
Is the transition immediate? It would appear so, as the following facts bear out: (1) in v. 6 residence in a physical body is contemporaneous with absence from direct presence with Christ, clearly implying that when the former ceases so also does the latter; (2) note the temporal indicators –“while we are in the body, we are absent from the Lord;” (3) v.7 has “walking by faith” and “walking by sight” set over against one another as opposites with no interval between them; when death occurs, faith gives way to sight and hope to fulfillment; (4) that physical death of the believer issues immediately in conscious presence with the Lord is the teaching of Paul in Phil. 1:20-24, “According to my earnest expectation and my hope, that in nothing I shall be ashamed, but that with all boldness, as always, so now also Christ shall be magnified in my body, whether it be by life, or by death. For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not. For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better: Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.”

Thus to be “at home in the body” = to be in one's homeland; among one's own people, and to be “absent from the Lord” = to be out of one's homeland; to be in a foreign country.

It would seem that v. 7 is designed to soften the blow of v. 6b, or to explain in what sense being “in” the body entails “absence” from Christ. Our absence from Christ is only spatial, not spiritual (cf. Matt. 28:19-20; Col. 1:27; John 17:23,26). While in the body we do not literally see Christ (at least, most of us don't!), but rather walk by faith in the physically absent and unseen Lord. Death brings us into spatial proximity and visible contact with Christ. Thus death, rather than severing our spiritual relationship with Christ, heightens and enhances it! Death brings us into the immediate vision of our Savior and the increased intimacy of fellowship which it entails.
This passage thus stands in direct opposition to the doctrine of soul sleep, or psychopannychia, which says that Christians at death enter a state of complete inactivity and unconsciousness, to be “awakened” at Christ's return. What, then, does the NT mean when it refers to death as “sleep” (see Mt. 27:52; Luke 8:52; Jn. 11:11-13; Acts 7:60; 1 Cor. 7:39; 11:30; 15:6,18; 1 Thess. 4:1)?

Three things, most likely. (1) Sleep implies rest from earthly toil, the cessation of activity in this realm. Thus one is asleep to this world, but alive and “awake” in the next. (2) The imagery of sleep is used to describe death because the body does sleep, in a manner of speaking. I.e., it is at rest, without activity or life. But nowhere does the Bible say that the “soul” or “spirit” sleeps or is unconscious. (3) Sleep is used to illustrate that the pain of death as a penalty for sin is gone for the Christian. Death for the believer, rather than something to be feared, is like dozing off for a nap (see esp. Lk. 16:19-31; Mt. 17:1-8; Mark 12:26-27; Rev. 6:9-11).

In summary: the intermediate state for the Christian is immediate transition upon death into the presence of Christ in heaven, during which time we experience holiness (no longer being at war with the flesh, although final glorification awaits at the resurrection), happiness, a heightened sense of consciousness, and knowledge of Christ in its fullest. But the “intermediate” state is not our “final” or “eternal” state.

So, do Christians “go to heaven” when they die? Yes, but only temporarily, as they await the return of Christ, the resurrection of the body, and eternal life in the New Heavens and New Earth.

Conclusion
This is always what I suspected but I had not done the research to prove it to myself until I read Storms take on the soul. So the way I see it when you die your body and soul separate with your soul going to heaven to be with Jesus. When the rapture happens your body comes out of the grave to be reunited with your soul, then you are changed into the eternal state to be with the Lord forever. Those believers alive at the rapture do not endure such, just change into the eternal state forever. The same for the tribulation saints that come out of the grave at Jesus’s return at the second coming. I hope this was helpful to anyone concerned about the hereafter. May Jesus come quickly. Maranatha…………...



Reply
Mar 10, 2017 14:06:08   #
saltwind78
 
ziggy, The plain truth is nobody knows what happens to us when we die. Different religions believe in different things. Personally, I don't believe that anything happens to us. It's over!
I certainly don't believe in the Christian belief that the people that believe in Jesus go to heaven and those that don't go to hell. God is not a monster, he is all that is good. He would never send innocent souls to spend an eternity in hell for believing in the religion he was born into. That belief was a part of the scare tactics that the early church used to get pagans to convert.
ziggy88 wrote:
By Sam Storms

Researched by Pastor Gary Boyd
Intro & Conclusion by Pastor Boyd

You sure do open a can of worms when you ask the above question. My father called me from the nursing home right before he died and I told him it was time for him to go be with Jesus. I believe I told him the right thing to do and after I said this my sister Dawn said he died. He had the early stages of Parkinson's and dementia was also coming on; he had missed my mother who had died years earlier and was saved when he passed. Sam Storms is an Amillennial, Calvinistic, charismatic, credo-baptistic, complementarian, Christian Hedonist who loves his wife of 44 years, his two daughters, his four grandchildren, books, baseball, movies, and all things Oklahoma University. In 2008 Sam became Lead Pastor for Preaching and Vision at Bridgeway Church in Oklahoma City, Oklahoma. This is his article, what follows is spot on and what I have always believed to be the truth.

Evangelicals Believe
There is a loud chorus of voices these days denouncing, in a somewhat condescending way, the long-standing belief among evangelicals that when Christians die they go to heaven. In one sense, this outcry is good and constructive. It is an understandable and much-needed response to the unbiblical gnosticism of some “fundamentalist” Christians who denigrate material creation, diminish the reality of a future bodily resurrection, and fail to reckon with the centrality in God’s redemptive purpose of the New Heavens and especially the New Earth.
So, is my answer to the question posed in the title, No? Not quite. My answer is: Immediately, Yes. Eternally, No. Or again, to simplify, when a Christian dies he/she immediately passes into the conscious presence of Christ in heaven. But when the day of resurrection arrives, he/she will be given a new and glorified body in the eternal state which all of God’s people will live and flourish on the New Earth (of Revelation 21-22).
What we’re talking about is known as the intermediate state, that period and/or experience of the individual believer between (hence, “intermediate”) the time of physical death and bodily resurrection. The biblical evidence for the intermediate state is unmistakable: see 2 Cor. 5:6-9; Phil. 1:21-24; Luke 16:19-31; Heb. 12:22-24; Rev. 6:9-11 (and perhaps 1 Thess. 4:13-18). Our focus here is 2 Corinthians 5:6-9. But first, a brief word about 2 Corinthians 5:1-5 is in order.

In these verses Paul speaks of his desire to be alive when Christ returns, for then he would not have to die physically and experience the separation of body and spirit, a condition he refers to as being “naked” (v. 3) or “unclothed.” Paul's perspective on life and death may therefore be put in this way: It is good to remain alive on this earth to serve Christ (Phil. 1:21a,22a,24-26). On the other hand, it is better to die physically and enter into the presence of Christ (2 Cor. 5:6-8; Phil. 1:21b,23). However, it is by far and away best to be alive when Christ returns, for then we avoid death altogether and are immediately joined with the Lord in our resurrected and glorified bodies.
According to 2 Cor. 5:3, if the believer remains alive until Christ returns she will be found by the Lord clothed with a body (the present, earthly one), and not in a disembodied state. To be without a body is to be “naked” and thus in a very important sense unnatural and less than ideal. Clearly, Paul envisaged a state of disembodiment between physical death and the general resurrection (cf. “unclothed” in v. 4). Verse 4 I take to be an expanded repetition of v. 2.

We now turn our attention to 2 Corinthians 5:6-9. There Paul writes:
“So we are always of good courage. We know that while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord, for we walk by faith, not by sight. Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord. So whether we are at home or away, we make it our aim to please him” (2 Cor. 5:6-9).
Note first of all the contrast set forth in vv. 6 and 8. The contrast is not primarily between two modes of human existence, as if one is in the body and one out of the body (although this is a valid contrast); nor is the contrast primarily that between two possible relationships to the Lord: one with the Lord and one away from the Lord (although again this is valid enough in itself). Paul's primary contrast is between two successive spheres of Christian residence or existence: now in the body and then with the Lord. The major point, therefore, is that life now in the body is to be followed immediately by life then with Christ.
IN the body = ABSENCE from the Lord
OUT OF the body = PRESENCE with the Lord

Our Soul
As one must be either in or out of his body (for there is no third alternative), so he must either be absent from or present with the Lord (for there is no third alternative). In 2 Cor. 5:1-5 Paul has shown that physical death means the loss of bodily existence. Here he explains what this entails for the Christian. There are but two possible modes of existence for us: if we are physically alive and in our bodies we are absent from Christ, if we die physically and leave our bodies we are present with Christ. The two experiences are mutually exclusive. Departure from mortal corporeality on earth marks the beginning of residence with the Lord in heaven, that is if you are a believer.
Is the transition immediate? It would appear so, as the following facts bear out: (1) in v. 6 residence in a physical body is contemporaneous with absence from direct presence with Christ, clearly implying that when the former ceases so also does the latter; (2) note the temporal indicators –“while we are in the body, we are absent from the Lord;” (3) v.7 has “walking by faith” and “walking by sight” set over against one another as opposites with no interval between them; when death occurs, faith gives way to sight and hope to fulfillment; (4) that physical death of the believer issues immediately in conscious presence with the Lord is the teaching of Paul in Phil. 1:20-24, “According to my earnest expectation and my hope, that in nothing I shall be ashamed, but that with all boldness, as always, so now also Christ shall be magnified in my body, whether it be by life, or by death. For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not. For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better: Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.”

Thus to be “at home in the body” = to be in one's homeland; among one's own people, and to be “absent from the Lord” = to be out of one's homeland; to be in a foreign country.

It would seem that v. 7 is designed to soften the blow of v. 6b, or to explain in what sense being “in” the body entails “absence” from Christ. Our absence from Christ is only spatial, not spiritual (cf. Matt. 28:19-20; Col. 1:27; John 17:23,26). While in the body we do not literally see Christ (at least, most of us don't!), but rather walk by faith in the physically absent and unseen Lord. Death brings us into spatial proximity and visible contact with Christ. Thus death, rather than severing our spiritual relationship with Christ, heightens and enhances it! Death brings us into the immediate vision of our Savior and the increased intimacy of fellowship which it entails.
This passage thus stands in direct opposition to the doctrine of soul sleep, or psychopannychia, which says that Christians at death enter a state of complete inactivity and unconsciousness, to be “awakened” at Christ's return. What, then, does the NT mean when it refers to death as “sleep” (see Mt. 27:52; Luke 8:52; Jn. 11:11-13; Acts 7:60; 1 Cor. 7:39; 11:30; 15:6,18; 1 Thess. 4:1)?

Three things, most likely. (1) Sleep implies rest from earthly toil, the cessation of activity in this realm. Thus one is asleep to this world, but alive and “awake” in the next. (2) The imagery of sleep is used to describe death because the body does sleep, in a manner of speaking. I.e., it is at rest, without activity or life. But nowhere does the Bible say that the “soul” or “spirit” sleeps or is unconscious. (3) Sleep is used to illustrate that the pain of death as a penalty for sin is gone for the Christian. Death for the believer, rather than something to be feared, is like dozing off for a nap (see esp. Lk. 16:19-31; Mt. 17:1-8; Mark 12:26-27; Rev. 6:9-11).

In summary: the intermediate state for the Christian is immediate transition upon death into the presence of Christ in heaven, during which time we experience holiness (no longer being at war with the flesh, although final glorification awaits at the resurrection), happiness, a heightened sense of consciousness, and knowledge of Christ in its fullest. But the “intermediate” state is not our “final” or “eternal” state.

So, do Christians “go to heaven” when they die? Yes, but only temporarily, as they await the return of Christ, the resurrection of the body, and eternal life in the New Heavens and New Earth.

Conclusion
This is always what I suspected but I had not done the research to prove it to myself until I read Storms take on the soul. So the way I see it when you die your body and soul separate with your soul going to heaven to be with Jesus. When the rapture happens your body comes out of the grave to be reunited with your soul, then you are changed into the eternal state to be with the Lord forever. Those believers alive at the rapture do not endure such, just change into the eternal state forever. The same for the tribulation saints that come out of the grave at Jesus’s return at the second coming. I hope this was helpful to anyone concerned about the hereafter. May Jesus come quickly. Maranatha…………...
By Sam Storms br br Researched by Pastor Gary Boy... (show quote)

Reply
Mar 10, 2017 15:16:55   #
ziggy88 Loc: quincy illinois 62301
 
Sir this post is for believers that are studied in biblical scripture, it sounds like you are an unbeliever who has not dissected God's word like I have. He has given me the knowledge to discern his wisdom in scripture. I am not saying I am better than you, just saved and born again, ready to meet my savior.

Reply
 
 
Mar 13, 2017 12:08:27   #
saltwind78
 
ziggy, Although I am not a Christian, I am a man of faith. I graduated from a Lutheran college, and took more than a couple of religion courses. This heaven stuff just doesn't ring true to me. Personally, I think it's insulting to our heavenly father, to believe that he condemns souls to eternal torture.
Picture a nazi SS man that killed a thousand or so Jews. Lets also assume that he believes in Jesus. That means that he will go to heaven although his victims, many of which are religious Jews will all be sent to hell because they were non believers. Does that make sense to you? God is just and merciful, and would never do that.
ziggy88 wrote:
Sir this post is for believers that are studied in biblical scripture, it sounds like you are an unbeliever who has not dissected God's word like I have. He has given me the knowledge to discern his wisdom in scripture. I am not saying I am better than you, just saved and born again, ready to meet my savior.

Reply
Mar 13, 2017 14:37:10   #
alabuck Loc: Tennessee
 
If I may add my 2 cents worth; Christ said, "I am the Way, the Truth and the Light. No man comes unto the Fsther but by Me." I, too, have studied the Bible, and I, too, have my beliefs; albeit different from some. To me, unless one accepts Christ as his personal savior, Christ will not stand before the Father and act as our intermediary. He will not accept the punishment for our sins which, therefore, through God's grace, allows us to be with the Father, in Heaven, once we die our earthly deaths.

As to any condition our bodies may be in, when Christ returns, seems irreverent to this, particular, topic. What happens to our bodies, if we're physically alive at the Rapture, depends upon how once feels regarding the theories of pre-millennialism, post-millennialism and a-millennialism. (I say "theories" because none are accepted universally as factual, except be each theory's proponents.)

From Wikipedia:
Premillennialism, in Christian eschatology, is the belief that Jesus will physically return to the earth to gather His saints before the Millennium, a literal thousand-year golden age of peace. This return is referred to as the Second Coming. The doctrine is called "premillennialism" because it holds that Jesus' physical return to earth will occur prior to the inauguration of the Millennium. It is distinct from the other forms of Christian eschatology such as postmillennialism or amillennialism, which view the millennial rule as occurring either before the second coming, or as being figurative and non-temporal. For the last century, the belief has been common in Evangelicalism according to surveys on this topic.[1]

Premillennialism is based upon a literal interpretation of Revelation 20:1–6 in the New Testament, which describes Jesus' reign in a period of a thousand years. It views this future age as a time of fulfillment for the prophetic hope of God's people as given in the Old Testament. Others, such as many (but not all) in the Eastern Orthodox communion, claim that this passage of Revelation describes the present time, when Christ reigns in Heaven with the departed saints; such an interpretation views the symbolism of Revelation as referring to a spiritual battle rather than a physical battle on earth.

The proponents of Amillennialism interpret the millennium as being a symbolic period of time, which is consistent with the highly symbolic nature of the literary and apocalyptic genre of the book of Revelation, sometimes indicating that the thousand years represent God's rule over his creation or the Church.

Premillennialism is often used to refer specifically to those who adhere to the beliefs in an earthly millennial reign of Christ as well as a rapture of the faithful coming before (dispensational) or after (historic) the tribulation preceding the millennium.

Post-millennialism, for example, agrees with premillennialism about the future earthly reign of Christ, but disagrees on the concept of a rapture and tribulation before the millennium begins. Postmillennialists hold to the view that the second coming will happen after the millennium.

Add to this mix/mess, whether or not your name is in the Book of Life, which seems to me, to negate Christ's reason for dying on the cross, yet gives many the reasoning to claim their theology is superior to another's.

Again, to me, too many people try to discern things in Scripture that give them an edge over the ordinary believer/reader in a vain attempt to make themselves look important and knowledgeable.

In spite of all this theological theatrics, Christ's words are the ones that I most closely try to follow. His Sermon on the Mount, The Beatitudes, and especially, His 2 Greatest Commandments, to me, boil down the message and theology of Christ, into words we can easily understand and follow.

Arguing over these other matters only serve to separate us as a Body of Christ and His Church. All these arguments are, is man interjecting his own thoughts and conclusions as to what we "think" the Father, Christ or the Holy Spirit "meant" when They said this or that.

Pretending we "know" all the answers when, in actuality, we don't truly know, only gives others pause to wonder if we "Christians" really do know what we're talking about. Claiming one denomination superior to another is just like the Muslim Sunni and Shia sects literally killing each other over which group more closely are the true followers of Mohammed, and consequently, the ones who should rule over Islam. Want proof were just as bad? Look up how many times Catholics and Protestants have killed each other over which religion was the "true religion." Look up how Christians have persecuted Jews and now, Muslims.

In Christ's 2 Greatest Commandments, did He put an * beside the word "neighbors," to qualify and disqualify those neighbors we were to love and not love? There's not any * in any Bible I have.

Reply
Mar 14, 2017 11:07:40   #
saltwind78
 
alabuck, You certainly are entitled to your belief.
alabuck wrote:
If I may add my 2 cents worth; Christ said, "I am the Way, the Truth and the Light. No man comes unto the Fsther but by Me." I, too, have studied the Bible, and I, too, have my beliefs; albeit different from some. To me, unless one accepts Christ as his personal savior, Christ will not stand before the Father and act as our intermediary. He will not accept the punishment for our sins which, therefore, through God's grace, allows us to be with the Father, in Heaven, once we die our earthly deaths.

As to any condition our bodies may be in, when Christ returns, seems irreverent to this, particular, topic. What happens to our bodies, if we're physically alive at the Rapture, depends upon how once feels regarding the theories of pre-millennialism, post-millennialism and a-millennialism. (I say "theories" because none are accepted universally as factual, except be each theory's proponents.)

From Wikipedia:
Premillennialism, in Christian eschatology, is the belief that Jesus will physically return to the earth to gather His saints before the Millennium, a literal thousand-year golden age of peace. This return is referred to as the Second Coming. The doctrine is called "premillennialism" because it holds that Jesus' physical return to earth will occur prior to the inauguration of the Millennium. It is distinct from the other forms of Christian eschatology such as postmillennialism or amillennialism, which view the millennial rule as occurring either before the second coming, or as being figurative and non-temporal. For the last century, the belief has been common in Evangelicalism according to surveys on this topic.[1]

Premillennialism is based upon a literal interpretation of Revelation 20:1–6 in the New Testament, which describes Jesus' reign in a period of a thousand years. It views this future age as a time of fulfillment for the prophetic hope of God's people as given in the Old Testament. Others, such as many (but not all) in the Eastern Orthodox communion, claim that this passage of Revelation describes the present time, when Christ reigns in Heaven with the departed saints; such an interpretation views the symbolism of Revelation as referring to a spiritual battle rather than a physical battle on earth.

The proponents of Amillennialism interpret the millennium as being a symbolic period of time, which is consistent with the highly symbolic nature of the literary and apocalyptic genre of the book of Revelation, sometimes indicating that the thousand years represent God's rule over his creation or the Church.

Premillennialism is often used to refer specifically to those who adhere to the beliefs in an earthly millennial reign of Christ as well as a rapture of the faithful coming before (dispensational) or after (historic) the tribulation preceding the millennium.

Post-millennialism, for example, agrees with premillennialism about the future earthly reign of Christ, but disagrees on the concept of a rapture and tribulation before the millennium begins. Postmillennialists hold to the view that the second coming will happen after the millennium.

Add to this mix/mess, whether or not your name is in the Book of Life, which seems to me, to negate Christ's reason for dying on the cross, yet gives many the reasoning to claim their theology is superior to another's.

Again, to me, too many people try to discern things in Scripture that give them an edge over the ordinary believer/reader in a vain attempt to make themselves look important and knowledgeable.

In spite of all this theological theatrics, Christ's words are the ones that I most closely try to follow. His Sermon on the Mount, The Beatitudes, and especially, His 2 Greatest Commandments, to me, boil down the message and theology of Christ, into words we can easily understand and follow.

Arguing over these other matters only serve to separate us as a Body of Christ and His Church. All these arguments are, is man interjecting his own thoughts and conclusions as to what we "think" the Father, Christ or the Holy Spirit "meant" when They said this or that.

Pretending we "know" all the answers when, in actuality, we don't truly know, only gives others pause to wonder if we "Christians" really do know what we're talking about. Claiming one denomination superior to another is just like the Muslim Sunni and Shia sects literally killing each other over which group more closely are the true followers of Mohammed, and consequently, the ones who should rule over Islam. Want proof were just as bad? Look up how many times Catholics and Protestants have killed each other over which religion was the "true religion." Look up how Christians have persecuted Jews and now, Muslims.

In Christ's 2 Greatest Commandments, did He put an * beside the word "neighbors," to qualify and disqualify those neighbors we were to love and not love? There's not any * in any Bible I have.
If I may add my 2 cents worth; Christ said, "... (show quote)

Reply
Mar 14, 2017 21:30:58   #
minoter
 
no where in your diatribe do you indicate the presence of purgatory where of course we must all spend time to expiate for our life time of sins. You indicate that when we die we are immediately swept up to Heaven (I suspect in a golden chariot) but that is absolute non sense.

Reply
 
 
Mar 18, 2017 09:34:23   #
saltwind78
 
ziggy, I don't care to get in a religious argument with you. Although I am not a Christian, I have great respect for all religions that believe in the golden rule, and is life affirming.
When you post a remark on OPP, it is open to all for comment. Both those that share common beliefs and those that don't are free to comment on any post.If you don't like posts that disagree with your beliefs, you may be happier contributing your beliefs on a religious chat board. I personally hope you don't because I believe in a free exchange of ideas.
ziggy88 wrote:
Sir this post is for believers that are studied in biblical scripture, it sounds like you are an unbeliever who has not dissected God's word like I have. He has given me the knowledge to discern his wisdom in scripture. I am not saying I am better than you, just saved and born again, ready to meet my savior.

Reply
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