Dr.Dross

Infringe: actively break the terms of (a law, agreement, etc.): "making an unauthorized copy would infringe copyright" synonyms: contravene, violate, transgress, break, breach

verb (used with object), infringed, infringing.
1.
to commit a breach or infraction of; violate or transgress:
to infringe a copyright; to infringe a rule.
verb (used without object), infringed, infringing.
2.
to encroach or trespass (usually followed by on or upon):
Don't infringe on his privacy.

transitive verb
1 :  to encroach upon in a way that violates law or the rights of another <infringe a patent>

We looked at the 1st Amendment, the foundational principle of our Republic, and saw where it had to be limited--abridged--for the true spirit of that right to shine. Same is true of the 2nd Amendment. Not to infringe but to clarify its use. Infringe does not translate to unrestricted. Quite the opposite. "Well regulated" is not a term to ignore. If ignored is the only way that makes all other arguments of restricted or unrestricted individual ownership possible. A Fable. Or just a sincere delusion. Just blind!

"To keep and bear arms" by any individual, though not a given by the 2nd Amendment, is not infringed upon by gun-control measures presently on the books. A person still gets to keep their guns. Registering your guns and awaiting a background check does not infringe on the right to keep and bear arms by the individual citizen, which is not a right. Reasonable controls do not infringe on the imaginary individual right to keep and bear arms. Such controls merely speak to the spirit of what is just and fair and for the common good. An unrestricted 2nd Amendment violates the Constitution and is a menace to its citizens.

JW

Well regulated, in the time of the founders, meant properly/competently trained. Similarly, the regular army means a thoroughly trained, standing fighting force as opposed to a militia.

PeterS

If you are are conservative who is terrified of the world around you 'infringe' does mean unrestricted. The second amendment was designed to give the country a military that would eliminate the need for a freestanding army--thus the reason free men were not to have their right to bear arms infringed upon--to do so would be to deny the country the means of protection that the founders intended.

The purpose of the second amendment to a conservative is irrelevant though and the only thing that is relevant is that any attempt take away their arms will be met with force...or so they say...

Loki Loc: Georgia

"To keep and bear arms" by any individual, though not a given by the 2nd Amendment,

Thank you. Reading your posts on this subject has enlightened me. Up until now, I only THOUGHT I understood the concept of "invincible ignorance."

You have managed to completely ignore the post I made on this thread containing comments of the men who WROTE the Second Amendment. There is absolutely NO DOUBT that it was intended as an individual right. You, like most Liberal hoplophobe Hobbit Dancers, have convinced yourselves that "the people" of the Second Amendment are somehow different from "the people" of all the others.

As a matter of fact, the Second Amendment, when it was written, fell under the purview of states' business. The Founders realized that different states have different needs. A gun control law that makes sense for New York would likely be ridiculous in Iowa.
As far as your disclaimer of individual right, I suppose you never heard of DC v Heller, in which the SCOTUS ruled that the Second acknowledges an INDIVIDUAL right to keep and bear arms. You have an amazing ability to completely ignore any facts that don't fit your parochial little viewpoint.

Dr.Dross

If "well regulated" meant what you said, properly/competently trained, how many individual gun owners qualify? Would it be fair and not an infringement to require all gun owners to be properly/competently trained?

Dr.Dross

Huh? 'infringe' does not mean unrestricted? What are you babbling about? The need for a free standing army was already approved by the first Congress.

Loki Loc: Georgia

You make the usual Liberal mistake of thinking that the Bill of Rights GRANTS rights. It does not, it acknowledges those rights as inherent and restricts the government's ability to INFRINGE on them. I have, twice on this thread alone, provided you with the Oxford Dictionary definition of "well-regulated" at the time of the writing and ratification of the Second Amendment. You have chosen to ignore reality once more, since you find it disagreeable.

Dr.Dross

You are getting very tiresome, Loki. (But my ignorance at times is invincible.) Please answer this one question: In parsing that amendment, is everything that comes after "a well regulated Militia" subject to that opening clause or not? If not, why not? If so, then case closed. You bring up SCOTUS? Bizarre, to say the least. How many times has it reversed itself? Look at the Dred Scott decision for one. But it is suddenly the word of God on a topic and the Right wants this court abolished for its rulings on Abortion and Gay marriage? Were those rulings also the word of God you affix to DC v Heller? Are you saying SCOTUS is infallible? Very, very weak.

It is very much in contention, if not a proven fact, that it was not "intended as an individual right." I agree it was meant to be states' business. But that still meant regulation--not unrestricted rights! Not to Infringe doesn't mean a lack of order, standards, or laws; it means that those under a well regulated Militia shall not be deprived of a weapon within that order, standards, and laws for the security of that state. Simple! If states do not abide by the principles of this right, meaning neglecting to make regulations curtailing unrestricted control of guns, violating the Bill of Rights, then the Fed must take over. "Well regulated" cannot be avoided or diminished. "Regulated" means there are standards, rules, and laws to be followed. IT IS NOT UNRESTRICTED! Controls limiting the possible abuses of the 2nd Amendment is not infringement; it is justice at work.

jack sequim wa Loc: Blanchard, Idaho

PROVE ME WRONG LEFTIST / LIBERAL! !!!!
Your the kind of putz that will go and hide upon empirical evidence, right?Who knows better what the Second Amendment means than the Founding Fathers? Here are some powerful gun quotations from the Founding Fathers themselves.
"A free people ought not only to be armed, but disciplined..."
- George Washington, First Annual Address, to both House of Congress, January 8, 1790
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms."
- Thomas Jefferson, Virginia Constitution, Draft 1, 1776
"I prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery."
- Thomas Jefferson, letter to James Madison, January 30, 1787
"What country can preserve its liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance. Let them take arms."
- Thomas Jefferson, letter to James Madison, December 20, 1787
"The laws that forbid the carrying of arms are laws of such a nature. They disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes.... Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man."
- Thomas Jefferson, Commonplace Book (quoting 18th century criminologist Cesare Beccaria), 1774-1776
"A strong body makes the mind strong. As to the species of exercises, I advise the gun. While this gives moderate exercise to the body, it gives boldness, enterprise and independence to the mind. Games played with the ball, and others of that nature, are too violent for the body and stamp no character on the mind. Let your gun therefore be your constant companion of your walks." - Thomas Jefferson, letter to Peter Carr, August 19, 1785
"The Constitution of most of our states (and of the United States) assert that all power is inherent in the people; that they may exercise it by themselves; that it is their right and duty to be at all times armed."
- Thomas Jefferson, letter to to John Cartwright, 5 June 1824
"On every occasion [of Constitutional interpretation] let us carry ourselves back to the time when the Constitution was adopted, recollect the spirit manifested in the debates, and instead of trying [to force] what meaning may be squeezed out of the text, or invented against it, [instead let us] conform to the probable one in which it was passed."
- Thomas Jefferson, letter to William Johnson, 12 June 1823
"I enclose you a list of the killed, wounded, and captives of the enemy from the commencement of hostilities at Lexington in April, 1775, until November, 1777, since which there has been no event of any consequence ... I think that upon the whole it has been about one half the number lost by them, in some instances more, but in others less. This difference is ascribed to our superiority in taking aim when we fire; every soldier in our army having been intimate with his gun from his infancy."
- Thomas Jefferson, letter to Giovanni Fabbroni, June 8, 1778
“They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
- Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759
"To disarm the people...[i]s the most effectual way to enslave them."
- George Mason, referencing advice given to the British Parliament by Pennsylvania governor Sir William Keith, The Debates in the Several State Conventions on the Adooption of the Federal Constitution, June 14, 1788
"I ask who are the militia? They consist now of the whole people, except a few public officers."
- George Mason, Address to the Virginia Ratifying Convention, June 4, 1788
"Before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed, as they are in almost every country in Europe. The supreme power in America cannot enforce unjust laws by the sword; because the whole body of the people are armed, and constitute a force superior to any band of regular troops."
- Noah Webster, An Examination of the Leading Principles of the Federal Constitution, October 10, 1787
"Besides the advantage of being armed, which the Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation, the existence of subordinate governments, to which the people are attached, and by which the militia officers are appointed, forms a barrier against the enterprises of ambition, more insurmountable than any which a simple government of any form can admit of."
- James Madison, Federalist No. 46, January 29, 1788
"The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. A well regulated militia, composed of the body of the people, trained to arms, is the best and most natural defense of a free country."
- James Madison, I Annals of Congress 434, June 8, 1789
"...the ultimate authority, wherever the derivative may be found, resides in the people alone..."
- James Madison, Federalist No. 46, January 29, 1788
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
- William Pitt (the Younger), Speech in the House of Commons, November 18, 1783
“A militia when properly formed are in fact the people themselves…and include, according to the past and general usuage of the states, all men capable of bearing arms… "To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms, and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them."
- Richard Henry Lee, Federal Farmer No. 18, January 25, 1788
"Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined.... The great object is that every man be armed. Everyone who is able might have a gun."
- Patrick Henry, Speech to the Virginia Ratifying Convention, June 5, 1778
"This may be considered as the true palladium of liberty.... The right of self defense is the first law of nature: in most governments it has been the study of rulers to confine this right within the narrowest limits possible. Wherever standing armies are kept up, and the right of the people to keep and bear arms is, under any color or pretext whatsoever, prohibited, liberty, if not already annihilated, is on the brink of destruction."
- St. George Tucker, Blackstone's Commentaries on the Laws of England, 1803


Do I need to give more quotes? I can no problem, proving your failed efforts of continously searching the Web, for anything to prove your false narratives.

Snoopy

[quote=jack sequim wa]PROVE ME WRONG LEFTIST / LIBERAL! !!!!
Your the kind of putz that will go and hide upon empirical evidence, right?Who knows better what the Second Amendment means than the Founding Fathers? Here are some powerful gun quotations from the Founding Fathers themselves.
"A free people ought not only to be armed, but disciplined..."
- George Washington, First Annual Address, to both House of Congress, January 8, 1790
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms."
- Thomas Jefferson, Virginia Constitution, Draft 1, 1776
"I prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery."
- Thomas Jefferson, letter to James Madison, January 30, 1787
"What country can preserve its liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance. Let them take arms."

Jack:

Great!

You touched every base!

Snoopy
- Thomas Jefferson, letter to James Madison, December 20, 1787
"The laws that forbid the carrying of arms are laws of such a nature. They disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes.... Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man."
- Thomas Jefferson, Commonplace Book (quoting 18th century criminologist Cesare Beccaria), 1774-1776
"A strong body makes the mind strong. As to the species of exercises, I advise the gun. While this gives moderate exercise to the body, it gives boldness, enterprise and independence to the mind. Games played with the ball, and others of that nature, are too violent for the body and stamp no character on the mind. Let your gun therefore be your constant companion of your walks." - Thomas Jefferson, letter to Peter Carr, August 19, 1785
"The Constitution of most of our states (and of the United States) assert that all power is inherent in the people; that they may exercise it by themselves; that it is their right and duty to be at all times armed."
- Thomas Jefferson, letter to to John Cartwright, 5 June 1824
"On every occasion [of Constitutional interpretation] let us carry ourselves back to the time when the Constitution was adopted, recollect the spirit manifested in the debates, and instead of trying [to force] what meaning may be squeezed out of the text, or invented against it, [instead let us] conform to the probable one in which it was passed."
- Thomas Jefferson, letter to William Johnson, 12 June 1823
"I enclose you a list of the killed, wounded, and captives of the enemy from the commencement of hostilities at Lexington in April, 1775, until November, 1777, since which there has been no event of any consequence ... I think that upon the whole it has been about one half the number lost by them, in some instances more, but in others less. This difference is ascribed to our superiority in taking aim when we fire; every soldier in our army having been intimate with his gun from his infancy."
- Thomas Jefferson, letter to Giovanni Fabbroni, June 8, 1778
“They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
- Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759
"To disarm the people...[i]s the most effectual way to enslave them."
- George Mason, referencing advice given to the British Parliament by Pennsylvania governor Sir William Keith, The Debates in the Several State Conventions on the Adooption of the Federal Constitution, June 14, 1788
"I ask who are the militia? They consist now of the whole people, except a few public officers."
- George Mason, Address to the Virginia Ratifying Convention, June 4, 1788
"Before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed, as they are in almost every country in Europe. The supreme power in America cannot enforce unjust laws by the sword; because the whole body of the people are armed, and constitute a force superior to any band of regular troops."
- Noah Webster, An Examination of the Leading Principles of the Federal Constitution, October 10, 1787
"Besides the advantage of being armed, which the Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation, the existence of subordinate governments, to which the people are attached, and by which the militia officers are appointed, forms a barrier against the enterprises of ambition, more insurmountable than any which a simple government of any form can admit of."
- James Madison, Federalist No. 46, January 29, 1788
"The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. A well regulated militia, composed of the body of the people, trained to arms, is the best and most natural defense of a free country."
- James Madison, I Annals of Congress 434, June 8, 1789
"...the ultimate authority, wherever the derivative may be found, resides in the people alone..."
- James Madison, Federalist No. 46, January 29, 1788
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
- William Pitt (the Younger), Speech in the House of Commons, November 18, 1783
“A militia when properly formed are in fact the people themselves…and include, according to the past and general usuage of the states, all men capable of bearing arms… "To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms, and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them."
- Richard Henry Lee, Federal Farmer No. 18, January 25, 1788
"Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined.... The great object is that every man be armed. Everyone who is able might have a gun."
- Patrick Henry, Speech to the Virginia Ratifying Convention, June 5, 1778
"This may be considered as the true palladium of liberty.... The right of self defense is the first law of nature: in most governments it has been the study of rulers to confine this right within the narrowest limits possible. Wherever standing armies are kept up, and the right of the people to keep and bear arms is, under any color or pretext whatsoever, prohibited, liberty, if not already annihilated, is on the brink of destruction."
- St. George Tucker, Blackstone's Commentaries on the Laws of England, 1803


Do I need to give more quotes? I can no problem, proving your failed efforts of continously searching the Web, for anything to prove your false narratives.[/quote]

rebob14

This will all continue to be an intellectual abstraction for you until the day some some citizen of anarchistan with a firearm decides something your thought belonged to you was really his.........but.......by then it will be too late. If that's your preference, enjoy.......but......leave the rest of us alone.

Snoopy

Jack:

Great!

You touched every base!

Snoopy

crazylibertarian Loc: Florida by way of New York & Rhode Island

The Founders wanted well regulated militias which was why they said the right to keep & bear arms must not be infringed. What is it about that that you do not understand?

Oh, and by the way, what is the source of your doctor title? You never answered it when I asked it earlier. I doubt whether you'll answer it this time.

Loki Loc: Georgia

Put down the bong and try to keep up. First, let us start with "parse

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/parse



Definition of parse
parsedparsing
transitive verb
1
a : to resolve (as a sentence) into component parts of speech and describe them grammatically
b : to describe grammatically by stating the part of speech and explaining the inflection and syntactical relationships
2
: to examine in a minute way : analyze critically <having trouble parsing … explanations for dwindling market shares — R. S. Anson>

Now then, let us continue with the definition of "well-regulated" according to the Oxford Dictionary IN THE CONTEXT, IN THE CONTEXT IN THE CONTEXT IN THE CONTEXT of the meaning of the adjectival phrase in the 18th century WHEN THE AMENDMENT WAS WRITTEN.


The meaning of the phrase "well-regulated" in the 2nd amendment

From: Brian T. Halonen <halonen@csd.uwm.edu>

The following are taken from the Oxford English Dictionary, and bracket in time the writing of the 2nd amendment:

1709: "If a liberal Education has formed in us well-regulated Appetites and worthy Inclinations."

1714: "The practice of all well-regulated courts of justice in the world."

1812: "The equation of time ... is the adjustment of the difference of time as shown by a well-regulated clock and a true sun dial."

1848: "A remissness for which I am sure every well-regulated person will blame the Mayor."

1862: "It appeared to her well-regulated mind, like a clandestine proceeding."

1894: "The newspaper, a never wanting adjunct to every well-regulated American embryo city."

The phrase "well-regulated" was in common use long before 1789, and remained so for a century thereafter. It referred to the property of something being in proper working order. Something that was well-regulated was calibrated correctly, functioning as expected. Establishing government oversight of the people's arms was not only not the intent in using the phrase in the 2nd amendment, it was precisely to render the government powerless to do so that the founders wrote it.

I am getting tiresome because I am tired of wasting my time trying to penetrate the impenetrable barrier of your deliberate ignorance.

As we proceed further along on our safari into your deliberately misinformed opinion, you stated the following:

"It is very much in contention, if not a proven fact, that it was not "intended as an individual right."

To answer this tripe, I will, ONCE MORE, post the comments of the men who WROTE THE DAMN AMENDMENT. I realize you are ever so much smarter than them, so much that you know what they meant to say better than they themselves did, but here are some of the poor misguided, not in agreement with Dr Dross opinions of the Founders.







"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms."
- Thomas Jefferson, Virginia Constitution, Draft 1, 1776

"I prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery."
- Thomas Jefferson, letter to James Madison, January 30, 1787

"What country can preserve its liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance. Let them take arms."
- Thomas Jefferson, letter to James Madison, December 20, 1787

"The laws that forbid the carrying of arms are laws of such a nature. They disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes.... Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man."
- Thomas Jefferson, Commonplace Book (quoting 18th century criminologist Cesare Beccaria), 1774-1776



"I enclose you a list of the killed, wounded, and captives of the enemy from the commencement of hostilities at Lexington in April, 1775, until November, 1777, since which there has been no event of any consequence ... I think that upon the whole it has been about one half the number lost by them, in some instances more, but in others less. This difference is ascribed to our superiority in taking aim when we fire; every soldier in our army having been intimate with his gun from his infancy."
- Thomas Jefferson, letter to Giovanni Fabbroni, June 8, 1778


"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
- Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759

[i]"To disarm the people...s the most effectual way to enslave them."
- George Mason, referencing advice given to the British Parliament by Pennsylvania governor Sir William Keith, The Debates in the Several State Conventions on the Adooption of the Federal Constitution, June 14, 1788

"I ask who are the militia? They consist now of the whole people, except a few public officers."
- George Mason, Address to the Virginia Ratifying Convention, June 4, 1788

"Before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed, as they are in almost every country in Europe. The supreme power in America cannot enforce unjust laws by the sword; because the whole body of the people are armed, and constitute a force superior to any band of regular troops."
- Noah Webster, An Examination of the Leading Principles of the Federal Constitution, October 10, 1787

"Besides the advantage of being armed, which the Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation, the existence of subordinate governments, to which the people are attached, and by which the militia officers are appointed, forms a barrier against the enterprises of ambition, more insurmountable than any which a simple government of any form can admit of."
- James Madison, Federalist No. 46, January 29, 1788




“A militia when properly formed are in fact the people themselves…and include, according to the past and general usuage of the states, all men capable of bearing arms… "To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms, and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them."
- Richard Henry Lee, Federal Farmer No. 18, January 25, 1788

"Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined.... The great object is that every man be armed. Everyone who is able might have a gun."
- Patrick Henry, Speech to the Virginia Ratifying Convention, June 5, 1778

"This may be considered as the true palladium of liberty.... The right of self defense is the first law of nature: in most governments it has been the study of rulers to confine this right within the narrowest limits possible. Wherever standing armies are kept up, and the right of the people to keep and bear arms is, under any color or pretext whatsoever, prohibited, liberty, if not already annihilated, is on the brink of destruction."
- St. George Tucker, Blackstone's Commentaries on the Laws of England, 1803

"The supposed quietude of a good man allures the ruffian; while on the other hand, arms, like law, discourage and keep the invader and the plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world as well as property. The balance ofpower is the scale of peace. The same balance would be preserved were all the world destitute of arms, for all would be alike; but since some will not, others dare not lay them aside. And while a single nation refuses to lay them down, it is proper that all should keep them up. Horrid mischief would ensue were one-half the world deprived of the use of them; for while avarice and ambition have a place in the heart of man, the weak will become a prey to the strong. The history of every age and nation establishes these truths, and facts need but little arguments when they prove themselves."
- Thomas Paine, "Thoughts on Defensive War" in Pennsylvania Magazine, July 1775

"The Constitution shall never be construed to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms."
- Samuel Adams, Massachusetts Ratifying Convention, 1788

"The right of the citizens to keep and bear arms has justly been considered, as the palladium of the liberties of a republic; since it offers a strong moral check against the usurpation and arbitrary power of rulers; and will generally, even if these are successful in the first instance, enable the people to resist and triumph over them."
- Joseph Story, Commentaries on the Constitution of the United States, 1833

We are all comforted beyond all reasonable expectations to realize that you are so much smarter than the men who wrote the laws governing our nation. Whatever would we do without you?

Loki Loc: Georgia

I have posted the same thing. I did so once again. Maybe if it slaps him in the face enough he will actually read it. Don't you just love people who offer opinion to counter FACT?