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Dec 1, 2016 10:05:50   #
ssgtgood
 
hprinze wrote:
========================================


We screwed up when the Americam people passed up Barry Goldwater .
LBJ was horrible.


True. LBJ sent me to Vietnam twice. By the grace of God I survived. A lot of guys didn't and just about everyone who did survive came home to an unappreciative population. They called us "Baby killers" and a lot of other derogatory terms. I even had some hippies spit at me while walking down the street in Washington DC in my uniform. I saw a wounded veteran on a gurney get hit with an over ripe tomato in San Francisco. LBJ absolutely sucked and so did the hippies.
Semper Fidelis

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Dec 1, 2016 10:24:08   #
Tasine Loc: Southwest US
 
ssgtgood wrote:
True. LBJ sent me to Vietnam twice. By the grace of God I survived. A lot of guys didn't and just about everyone who did survive came home to an unappreciative population. They called us "Baby killers" and a lot of other derogatory terms. I even had some hippies spit at me while walking down the street in Washington DC in my uniform. I saw a wounded veteran on a gurney get hit with an over ripe tomato in San Francisco. LBJ absolutely sucked and so did the hippies.
Semper Fidelis

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I remember those days........the most disgusting America has ever been.....HIPPIES with nothing better to do, every one of them worthless pieces of flotsam. The one saving grace is that they DID get some blowback, and I enjoyed that a LOT. Those hippies are the same ones who believed in sex with anyone at any time, then they were all in favor of abortions......and that negated their "baby killers" LIE. They became the baby killers of all time, and they were too stupid to see that. Those hippies were worthless trash, an embarrassment to all decent Americans.

Reply
Dec 1, 2016 11:00:15   #
working class stiff Loc: N. Carolina
 
Loki wrote:
There are several intelligent Liberals on OPP with whom I debate courteously. We agree on almost nothing, yet manage to remain civil to each other. I respond in kind. My comments on your understanding of history were not insulting, they were simply an observation that you are not displaying the breadth of understanding most Liberals claim to possess. I have nailed more than one so-called conservative also. Differences of opinion are vital. I prefer the high road, but I'm pretty well-versed in the other options.
There are several intelligent Liberals on OPP with... (show quote)


I don't think it's an either/or situation: You and the Dr. both have valid points that do not contradict each other.

Slavery as a moral evil is a concept millennia old and taught by numerous philosophers and religious leaders. The knowledge and thinking were there for folks willing to listen. That would include some the founders (Jefferson's weeping for his country when considering God is just, e.g.)

Your point about the prevailing views is also true...that slavery was an accepted part of daily life the world over and the common understanding at the founding of the country included the compromise to accept slavery. It was normal, and many of those who were against slavery on religious grounds were still convinced that blacks were inferior as a 'race'.
So, I agree with your point about judging the past by today's standards. It is pointless and usually used to grind an axe, by either side, on issues being debated in the here and now.

Basically, one doesn't have to judge history to try and understand it.

But I think it also worth pursuing how that history has shaped our modern understanding, and how that history has shaped current events. It's not as though the effects of historical events 'disappear' with the passage of time. IMH opinion, the effects of our American race based system of slavery still has an effect on the country. Whether through the period of reconstruction, Jim Crow and the KKK, or the civil rights era, the effects of the past still have it's fingers massaging our nation today.

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Dec 1, 2016 11:09:07   #
Tasine Loc: Southwest US
 
working class stiff wrote:
I don't think it's an either/or situation: You and the Dr. both have valid points that do not contradict each other.

Slavery as a moral evil is a concept millennia old and taught by numerous philosophers and religious leaders. The knowledge and thinking were there for folks willing to listen. That would include some the founders (Jefferson's weeping for his country when considering God is just, e.g.)

Your point about the prevailing views is also true...that slavery was an accepted part of daily life the world over and the common understanding at the founding of the country included the compromise to accept slavery. It was normal, and many of those who were against slavery on religious grounds were still convinced that blacks were inferior as a 'race'.
So, I agree with your point about judging the past by today's standards. It is pointless and usually used to grind an axe, by either side, on issues being debated in the here and now.

Basically, one doesn't have to judge history to try and understand it.

But I think it also worth pursuing how that history has shaped our modern understanding, and how that history has shaped current events. It's not as though the effects of historical events 'disappear' with the passage of time. IMH opinion, the effects of our American race based system of slavery still has an effect on the country. Whether through the period of reconstruction, Jim Crow and the KKK, or the civil rights era, the effects of the past still have it's fingers massaging our nation today.
I don't think it's an either/or situation: You an... (show quote)

Beautifully said. I ditto your every word.

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Dec 1, 2016 11:31:10   #
working class stiff Loc: N. Carolina
 
Tasine wrote:
Beautifully said. I ditto your every word.


Thank you.

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Dec 1, 2016 11:37:50   #
slatten49 Loc: Lake Whitney, Texas
 
working class stiff wrote:
I don't think it's an either/or situation: You and the Dr. both have valid points that do not contradict each other.

Slavery as a moral evil is a concept millennia old and taught by numerous philosophers and religious leaders. The knowledge and thinking were there for folks willing to listen. That would include some the founders (Jefferson's weeping for his country when considering God is just, e.g.)

Your point about the prevailing views is also true...that slavery was an accepted part of daily life the world over and the common understanding at the founding of the country included the compromise to accept slavery. It was normal, and many of those who were against slavery on religious grounds were still convinced that blacks were inferior as a 'race'.
So, I agree with your point about judging the past by today's standards. It is pointless and usually used to grind an axe, by either side, on issues being debated in the here and now.

Basically, one doesn't have to judge history to try and understand it.

But I think it also worth pursuing how that history has shaped our modern understanding, and how that history has shaped current events. It's not as though the effects of historical events 'disappear' with the passage of time. IMH opinion, the effects of our American race based system of slavery still has an effect on the country. Whether through the period of reconstruction, Jim Crow and the KKK, or the civil rights era, the effects of the past still have it's fingers massaging our nation today.
I don't think it's an either/or situation: You an... (show quote)

W-C-S, I have to agree with Tasine about your post...perhaps the best of several good ones on the thread.

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Dec 1, 2016 13:08:14   #
Homestead
 
Dr.Dross wrote:
You have a very narrow focus, which can be good where called for, like a microscope. But in the Big Picture, it is common knowledge Lincoln knew the Emancipation Proclamation was a little more than a symbolic act.


It set the stage for the Constitutional amendment that eliminated slavery, hardly symbolic.

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Dec 1, 2016 14:21:55   #
TexaCan Loc: Homeward Bound!
 
Dr.Dross wrote:
So is every army to every country the bravest, most admirable, most honorable and the most loyal. AARRGGHH! Oh, a Texan. Never mind it will be useless.


'Curious'! Don't you just love that word? There are some other very interesting posters on OPP that also seem to love to use that word in the exact same way! They also have your writing style and your word usage. They seem to have a common dislike of Christians and the NRA. As you have demonstrated on this thread, they love to answer conservative post one after another with a complementary sarcastic elitist liberal put-down! And last but not least, when given the opportunity, they have demonstrated a very antagonistic attitude against a very special beloved lady on OPP! Rumi you seem to get a little Sloppy late at night and early in the morning. Say hello to your little friends!!!

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Dec 1, 2016 14:28:48   #
Loki Loc: Georgia
 
Cool Breeze wrote:
Seriously? We both know better don't we?



Certainly there are intelligent Liberals on OPP. You just aren't among them. There are also courteous Liberals on OPP. You needn't worry yourself over inclusion into that group either.

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Dec 1, 2016 14:36:46   #
TexaCan Loc: Homeward Bound!
 
Tasine wrote:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I remember those days........the most disgusting America has ever been.....HIPPIES with nothing better to do, every one of them worthless pieces of flotsam. The one saving grace is that they DID get some blowback, and I enjoyed that a LOT. Those hippies are the same ones who believed in sex with anyone at any time, then they were all in favor of abortions......and that negated their "baby killers" LIE. They became the baby killers of all time, and they were too stupid to see that. Those hippies were worthless trash, an embarrassment to all decent Americans.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ br I remem... (show quote)


My turn to say DITTO! That was the beginning of the feminist BS!

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Dec 1, 2016 16:34:52   #
Docadhoc Loc: Elsewhere
 
Dr.Dross wrote:
Arguments against slavery were, as demonstrated in my post, millennia old: it was not a new concept confronting our Founding Fathers. Abortion is accepted in this society: conscience is overruled? Hey, whatsher name did it, so we are good to go, right? Is Jesus the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow? Are these so-called Christian Founding Fathers somehow exempt from that? If raping your infant daughter was approved, could I judge the people of another era by the standards of this one? What are you freaking nuts? Do you know how stupid and outlandish you sound? I am greatly surprised. An apologist for slavery: who'd a thunk it. Anyone who owned slaves knew how barbaric the system had become, not that it wasn't barbaric in the best of times. You hold the outrageous and ridiculous opinion their terrible choice to keep slaves is somehow excused because it was "another era." But anti-slavery notions were as much a part of that era and had been for centuries before, as I showed. There is no excuse! It was simply unconscionable. But they did it! One day walking the fields and talking with the slaves would have been enough for any decent man to know it was wrong. But they continued! Again, abortion is the common practice of this era: are we somehow excused it is wrong?
Arguments against slavery were, as demonstrated in... (show quote)


Abortion is not approved in society's conscience. It was made law by those in.power at the time and will be reversed in the same manner.

The media constantly buries and avoids.newsworthy destructive actions of liberal supporters but widely publicises anything they can blow out of proportion done by the right.

Perhaps.media's greatest failing is to not.point out the hypocrisy of the left.

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Dec 1, 2016 16:54:24   #
KiraSeer2016
 
Dr.Dross wrote:
It seemed so simple for so long, so black and white. America was great and good and right and just in all that it did. We were exceptional! We were God's ideal for this weary and wretched world! The true hero! I loved being an American. Dressing in the morning since I was seven was like putting on a uniform for the defense of Liberty. All Americans were warriors for Freedom. And then I read too many books, only looking to see how great our country truly was. I found that our nation is deeply flawed. Not irredeemably, for we do look and act to correct ourselves, a true marvel in any age, but grievous mistakes have been made. America is no hero by a long stretch--and that hurts.

To admit to our many mistakes as a nation is not to undermine our nation. The exceptional thing about America is that it tries, and usually does, correct its wrongs as best it can. Coming to accept my nation as weak and flawed at times, even terribly wrong, increases my respect and awe at our Constitution and governmental processes. We right those wrongs and move on. Where I need help is in not reacting to citizens who see America as having done no wrong. Those history revisionist that see our slave-holding Founders as "tirelessly working" to end slavery. They did not.
It seemed so simple for so long, so black and whit... (show quote)


The founders did, in the Constitution, allow for the outlawing of slave trading, after 20 years, trying to give the new nation a chance to become workable. Their thinking was that at that time, after America had a good start, the question of abolishing slavery could be answered.

Unfortunately, the cotton gin was invented, and the South tried to hang on to their slaves.

It's really a lesson in not assuming that certain things will be easier to do, if you put it off. But who really knows.

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Dec 1, 2016 17:02:56   #
Nickolai
 
1thinker2another wrote:
Dr dross - while I agree with some of your sentiment, you apparently need to do some deep research before you speak about or cast aspersions on our founding fathers. They were brilliant !!!





They were brilliant but they wanted to be aristocrats did not believe in Democracy regarding it as mobocracy and only the educated elite such as them selves need participate in it and only men of property possessed the were with all to vote and serve on a jury al others were excluded. The fight for democracy came from the bottom up and began to make real progress with the progressive movement and the founding convention of the Peoples party in 1892 and merged with the Democratic party in 1896 and lasted until the last third of the 20th Century

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Dec 1, 2016 17:54:25   #
Nickolai
 
Loki wrote:
Your knowledge of history is somewhat parochial. History is determined by events, which are in turn fueled by the prevailing beliefs of the times. These beliefs reflected the reality of the period.
At the time the Constitution was written, slavery was practiced over most of the world. It was legal in most places and was an accepted part of life; viewed as a normal state of affairs. Slavery began to be seen in a bad light after the industrial revolution made slavery less profitable in many places. Capitalism, rather than morality, began the demise of slavery.
Most of the slaves in the US were brought here by Spanish, Portuguese, and especially English ships. Out of some 12 million slaves transported to the Western Hemisphere from Africa, about 600,000 ended up in what became the US. The rest went to the Caribbean, Mexico, and South and Central America.
You cannot judge people of another era by the standards of this one. Their reality was much harsher than ours, their beliefs correspondingly different. They have to be judged against the backdrop of the physical reality of the time and place in which they existed. The moral code they adhered to was one born of the times. Flogging, public executions and the stocks were also commonplace and accepted as perfectly normal. Witchcraft was the explanation for imperfectly understood scientific phenomena. A person from today who was transported back to the Spain and Portugal of Columbus, Ferdinand and Isabella would quickly find him or herself the guest of honor at an impromptu party thrown by Tomas de Torquemada and his boys.

The Founders were, by the standards of their time, quite enlightened. At a time of monarchies and dictatorships, they advocated a Republic. Liberals say that women and slaves couldn't vote. Slaves couldn't vote anywhere, and to the best of my knowledge, neither could women. The Framers were an aristocracy for the most part, but one who gave a say in government to the middle class of the time, which was property and business owners. This idea of letting the masses govern themselves was, in it's own right, revolutionary for the time and place.
The US has made mistakes. All great nations do. The treatment of the American Indian was despicable by today's standards, but commonly accepted the world over at the time it happened. I would suggest that there probably aren't 20 acres of real estate in the world, (excluding Antarctica,) with any sort of strategic or tactical value that have not been conquered and re-conquered repeatedly. I mentioned the American Indian tribes a moment ago. The fact is that many of them acquired "their" land in the same way that we "acquired" it from them. They stole it, same as us. The pre-Columbian Indian society was not a model of peaceful cooperation. The Iroquois, the Shawnee, some of the Algonquin tribes in Canada, the Lakota, along with cousins Cheyenne and Arapaho, the Navajo, Apache, Yaqui, all were conquering, warlike tribes who either killed, enslaved or drove off the original occupants of the land they claimed. Let us not forget the Aztecs and Incas, either. Both Cortez and Pizzaro were able to conquer the Aztecs and Incas respectively due to lots of help from smaller, weaker tribes that had been victimized by these "civilized" tribes.

In short, every nation had made mistakes, and some of what you think of as mistakes were not regarded as such by the standards of the times in which they happened.
Your knowledge of history is somewhat parochial. H... (show quote)






All of what you say is true but it doesn't make it right nor does it validate the claim that the US is an exceptional nation that has sought to expand exponentially since its inception. A war like nation with a national Anthem hat reflects its nature with song of rockets and bombs exploding. For over 100 years the US has had a fondness for capitalist imperialism by proxy and been in the business of assassinations , and propping up client state dictators, Tyrants, and corrupt puppet-presidents, who have been aided, supported, and rewarded handsomely for their loyalty to American business interests. American tax dollars and USA backed loans have made billionaires of some, while others are drug dealers who also collect CIA paychecks. But the US government was held responsible for supporting some of the worst human rights violators in history. Their troops receive arms, training and advice from the CIA as well as Latin American terrorist at the school of the Americas Ft Benning Georgia. t is American military that guarantees their hold on power and the fact they provide free access by Wall Street to their countries natural resources.

The USA has over the years, installed financed , supported with cash and arms, 44 bloody dictators. In 13 of those cases the USA actually overthrew a legitimate functioning democracy for the sake of installing one of their own dictators who would be more pliable to US foreign policy. In several cases when the population of a country revolted and overthrew the US installed Dictator, the US sent warship to put down the revolt and install their dictator once again. To the population back home the reason often given was for protecting" freedom " "stability" "controlling the Soviet Union" and so on..........tye CIAplayed a considerable role in the overthrowing of Chilean of President Salvador Allende in 1973 by Augusto Pinochet who is credited with a 17 year reign of oppression and used the Chilean people as Guinea pigs for Milton Freidmans neoliberal economic theories that doubled poverty from 29 % to 40 % in 17 years

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Dec 1, 2016 18:05:08   #
Homestead
 
KiraSeer2016 wrote:
The founders did, in the Constitution, allow for the outlawing of slave trading, after 20 years, trying to give the new nation a chance to become workable. Their thinking was that at that time, after America had a good start, the question of abolishing slavery could be answered.

Unfortunately, the cotton gin was invented, and the South tried to hang on to their slaves.

It's really a lesson in not assuming that certain things will be easier to do, if you put it off. But who really knows.
The founders did, in the Constitution, allow for t... (show quote)


Yeah, at the time of the founding, the institution of slavery was dying out. The general consensus was that it would die out of it's own and the country would finally be free of it.

But, the cotton gin changed all that. Slavery became very profitable again and caused a resurgence which led to the desire to expand it.

It was the desire to expand it that brought it to a head.

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