Boo_Boo Loc: Jellystone

I have a discussion going on with my neighbor. She says that when you forgive someone it is alright not to forget. I argue that when you truly forgive then you must forget the transgression. What is you opinion? I know that there is no science behind this, just me wondering if I am unusual in my belief.

Thanks

Wolf counselor Loc: Heart of Texas

Hello inquisitive spirit. How can you forget transgression ? It is imprinted upon the memory. And who needs science but unbelievers. It is God who forgets transgressions when the transgressor asks forgiveness . Isaiah 43:25 "I, even I, am he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins.,

Brian Devon

Most of us have a number of memories we would like to remove from our heads. The only person I know who was successful at removing memories was Tommy Lee Jones in, "Men in Black". However that was science fiction farce and not real life. If you come up with a way to remove undesired memories please let me know. My wife would like to know that too...being that she remembers every wrong thing that I have ever done. She says it's a woman thing......

Brian Devon

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Boo_Boo Loc: Jellystone

For me, I think less of the bad things and concentrate on the good. The bad memory fades. Practice will make the faded memory less and less important until one day, you do not think about it anymore. I did not say that complete forgiveness happens in a day or two; sometimes years passes before you no longer think about the mistake. So perhaps I am unusual; but I also do meditation to train the mind.

Thank you for your comment.

AuntiE Loc: 45th Least Free State

Which "wrong" is probably legion. :idea: :!:

Now, serious stuff. Does she remember because it was something she had talked about being an issue for her, and you did not "hear" the message and continued doing? Is it just a "nitpick" irritant?

By the way, we did brunch instead of "high tea". Hopefully the endive/crab/avocado salad was an acceptable substitute for the scone. I did have tea instead of coffee at the end. As you are fond of England, I did Stilton with pears for the cheese board. Hopefully such is acceptable. They did not have any tofu or sprouts nor was anyone is jeans, tennis shoes or tee shirts. There are some areas who continue to try and do protocol and substance. You obviously missed the lessons on the first.

Boo_Boo Loc: Jellystone

We, my neighbor and I, were talking in generalities. Apparently she remembers ever unkind word, action, or implied insult. To me, that is a waste of time and energy. We are not talking about murder..... just small things. What brought it up was her daughter having a memory lapse, she failed to call first thing in the morning to wish her happy birthday. I went to her house around noon with flowers and a card for her birthday and she was in a twit. After discovering the problem, I told her that people get busy and the day was not over. Well that made her upset with me and in the process of trying to get my foot out of my mouth we discussed "forgiving" and she told me that it is not possible to forget but possible to forgive. I told her that true forgiveness requires forgetting. Needless to say, she told me that I was dimwitted and I should mind my own business. At which point, I realized that she was not having a good birthday, so I did my pleasantries and went home. Ergo, the reason I am asking opinions. It is quite possible that I am an oddity.

Perfect for high tea. As always your table is perfect!

rumitoid

Very late in life I came to the reluctant realization that anytime there is a need to forgive, there is something wrong in me. (I say reluctant because it seemed I thrived on blame and resentment for about a decade.) I do need constant reminders of this axiom but quickly or slowly it proves true every time. I usually don't like this at first because there seems a human need to luxuriate in being wronged, and as I have found, for a number of reasons. Yet all those reasons deal with in some way assuaging or hiding character defects and shortcomings within me. Denial can serve a healthy function: I may not be emotionally ready to handle a flaw or the death of a loved one and the impact could damage my psyche.

Let me leap to the basis of this concept: emotional maturity is when psychological need becomes more a psychological gift. However much we achieve this transformation, in those areas I forget harm done because there was none: it was something in me that needed to be healed or processed. In effect, if I have found wholeness of being, there is no memory to store or forget about any harm done, for no harm can befall me.

Most things I push from my mind act out unconsciously: it is popularly called the Shadow Self. I discovered it is very real and more active than consciousness when there is a life dominated by deep wounds, shame, and guilt. From this I get primarily a reactionary life. It is a rigid lifestyle filled with strict beliefs, judgmentalism, passive-aggression, and blame without thinking. Highly defensive. Yet an ovewhelming vast majority of people operate within this spectrum, to varying degrees, of course.

When I began to see much of the harm I had perceived to be no more than a reaction to some of deep wounds, no ill had been intended, I felt very foolish. But that was good. It made me ask: what other blind spots might I have. I have been steady t work on those things for over thirty years now and I'm just a few watts short of enlightenment today. Just kidding. It appears, at least in my experience, that each age brings a fresh crop of blind spots. Facing old age has its plethora of demons to face or look to ignore and repress.

If I am not attached to what I possess, who can steal from me?
If I am not attached to what I think of myself, who can insult me?

Forgiveness is frequently taught to be for oneself, especially for those deeply damaged, as a way to release from the pain of the past and resulting constraints put on life. This is right and just...but just the beginning of the process. Usually someone needs to get extremely angry before truly opening to this stage of forgiveness. That energy moves them to do something. Only after this do many make the painful realization that how they lived their life, all that hurt and lost opportunities, was actually on them and not the perpetrator. Ow! Yet this is needed to go on.

Talked way too much. I will leave you with this. Every act of forgiveness is the claim of being a victim, and being a victim as an adult is always (Important note: not as a child), 100% of the time, self-imposed.

Boo_Boo Loc: Jellystone

Most of the time, to include now, your thought process is not easy for me to follow. But, I guess I got the gist of this one. You have somehow transcended mortal emotions. Good for you. Bad for me, because I still am human with emotions. My neighbor is still quite human and we are discussing forgiveness; can you truly forgive and not forget. There is a strong probability that I am wrong, now that I see how pompous I must have sounded to her. In which case, I will have to visit her tomorrow and let her know.

rumitoid

"You have somehow transcended mortal emotions."
To your misread of what I said:
-'I do need constant reminders of this axiom but quickly or slowly it proves true every time.'
-'Denial can serve a healthy function: I may not be emotionally ready to handle a flaw or the death of a loved one and the impact could damage my psyche.'
-'It appears, at least in my experience, that each age brings a fresh crop of blind spots. Facing old age has its plethora of demons to face or look to ignore and repress.'

I thought I made it sufficiently plain that I was not claiming "perfection" in this regard, as the above excerpts from my post attest.
The process is not to make one devoid of emotions but free of limiting self-talk and Shadow manipulation. Not feeling threatened or angry or hurt is not the absence of emotion but a sign of emotional maturity, liberated from the scourges of a Shadow Self.

Boo_Boo Loc: Jellystone

I guess, thank you.

rumitoid

One can only forget forgiveness for a harm done when they come to see they had not only an active part in it but created the grounds of harm.

Boo_Boo Loc: Jellystone

Acknowledged.

grace scott

As I said in another post, I'm glad you are back and doing OK. When I started reading this, my answer would have been "You can forgive, but you can't forget."

I was married for 40 years, and I can't remember anything we fought about. I know we did. I just can't remember what. So you can forgive and forget.

Boo_Boo Loc: Jellystone

Thank you Grace,

It is good to be back! How are you doing? I have from time to time dropped in and have read many of your posts. You always give great thought to your posts. You and I are like minded in this question. I know that people have disagreements, even fights, but I think that realizing that is not the same as holding a grudge and indeed forgiving and forgetting go hand in hand. Not that you can just snap the finger and make it go away, but you can forgive and forget. Thank you!