woodguru

I am 62, when I was in about second grade, so about 7 or so, my mother married a guy who was an aircraft mechanic for United Airlines and an Air Force reservist, flew C-119's. I remember he made somewhere around $8 an hour. I have three brothers and sisters and they had another kid, so five kids. The first house they bought was a three bedroom for about $11k. Needing a bigger house they bought a brand new much larger four bedroom for $18k, and moved to a much nicer area when I was in the 4th grade. The next house when I was in the 8th grade near the base he had scored a civil service job that payed a lot more, we bought a $32k house in the country on acreage.

So during an eight year period working wages that were from $20k to maybe $40k was sufficient to raise five kids, own houses, have full on healthcare, and do a lot of camping and other activities. We had a boat and a tent trailer.

The huge difference and what happened is that the income needed to raise a family on one income went north, especially the cost of the same home, while the working class income, even union did not keep up. Meanwhile the rate executive pay went up was not on an equal amount relative to working class wages. I hired a controller for my business that had been in charge of a bank of america branch for $55k in 1986. A customer service job for a print shop probably still pays what it did right at that time today, about $25k give or take. The pressmen are not making much if any more in the 25 year interim.

But what I can look at is that the upscale homes that workers and sales people were living in that were $400k or higher homes in great areas when a regular nice house was $70 to $125k is a house that these class workers and managers can still afford to buy today even though they cost well over a million dollars. Higher end employees pay has kept up with higher housing and living costs, their lifestyle has not changed.

Meanwhile there has been a consistent claim that workers pay has not moved much because companies don't have the money, when in fact they have had the money it's just that the first priority has been management incomes and profit, which has done well.

In all this, which to me is really easy to figure out simply by doing the math, why have working class people been so easy to placate? Why do they accept such an ever increasing difference between wealthy and comfortable people and working class people? The corporations can obviously pay more if they paid their overpaid top end management less. I'd be seriously unhappy even at $50k a year if the CEO pay went from a few hundred thousand to millions a year, and then find out they get millions of dollars in bonuses.

In the 80's I had a bindery business with about 145 employees. They got paid piecemeal to limit my labor, but every month I worked out the profit margins on jobs and paid them 10% of the profit margin divided by the pay they had earned. I was making a profit of around $25k to $50k a month so it was actually a rather nice bonus, and I paid it when contracted jobs were done and I knew what I was clearing after expenses.

As far as I'm concerned business owners have a tendency to be greedy as all hell. Most will worry about a BMW or bigger house before ever rewarding their employees with bonuses, meanwhile the management gets the raises and bonuses. I've seen way too many small business owners that have employees that are barely getting by when the owners have a ridiculous lifestyle. Growing up My grandfather was a painter and handyman, and had a lot of contractor friends. Their workers lived pretty much the way they did, they were not greedy people. My grandfather helped people who worked for him build their own homes, he loaned them the money to do it. So I guess my attitude toward employees is in my DNA huh?

What's wrong with this country right now is greedy people and corporations. In the past when the country went through hard times the wealthy industrialists had a different attitude about higher taxes and doing their part to rebuild the nation. Not to mention they understood than when the government supported their industries with infrastructure they hired more people and made even more money. In the periods where the wealthiest paid the highest taxes in history the rich got richer and the country did better. We'll never break this cycle when the rich keep wanting lower taxes no matter how low they go.

acknowledgeurma

Kevyn

Your observations are accurate I would add one thing, the drop of purchasing power, along with a loss of benefits and old age pensions almost exactly mirror the decline of membership in organized labor by the workforce. The same thing has happened to the working class in England. What we need is law and policy that strengthens organized labor and levels the playing field between working families and multinational corporations.

Airforceone

Outstanding that puts real life experience on what income in equality has created. Reagan tax cuts Bush Tax cuts did nothing but increase income in equality, and raise the deficit due to lost income to the Federal government.

During the Bush Tax cuts the top 1% enjoyed 95% of all income gains. Inequality also impairs growth because those in the middle and at the bottom have no money to spend. The higher the inequality will correlate into slow growth as shown early in the Obama administration.

All economic reseach pertaining to wealthy tax cuts did not create jobs or growth it only widened inequality between the upper 1% of income earners and everybody else.

The only reason for the Reagan years was with the Paul Volcher plan that started when Jimmy Carter appointed Paul Volcher to the Federal reserve to raise the interest rates to stop inflation. During the Volcher plan Carter got voted out and Reagan kept Paul Volcher on as fed chairman. When inflation came down Paul Volcher dropped the interest rates which created low interest loans for corporations and small businesses which created jobs and growth and Reagan got the credit.

Reagan which everybody ignores created inequality and added 345% to the deficit.

Now we have the Trump tax cuts if Trump does not spur growth by at least 4% that deficit will be $2.3 trillion not $1.5 trillion. He has to obtain over 4% for the $1.5 trillion deficit to start to come down. Trump is bragging about 3% and 3.2% and that’s not good.

maryjane

I agree with you, Woodguru. I have no problem with the big corporations' CEOs being paid well, but surely they can manage nicely on fewer millions and pay the workers more. Everyone forgets who the most important people in any business are, and that is the workers because without them doing their jobs the business has nothing to sell. So, in my opinion, a well run business always keeps this in mind and treats the workers as the most important part of the business family. When the business does well, so do the workers. But, today, the people who own and operate businesses have no loyalty to anything/anyone except the dollar, themselves and their board members. Today, American businesses also have no loyalty to their country nor their fellow citizens and that is horrible. And this is contributing to the downfall and destruction of the USA.

jack sequim wa Loc: Blanchard, Idaho

Another factor is the value of the dollar. In the first part of the early 1900's a dollar actual value was about. 97 cents, in 1960 about. 65 cents and now only about. 09 cents. The value of the dollar equals buying power.
Another way I've seen it broken down based on min wage. % if full timers earnings on food, % on housing % on clothing % on utilities ect. another bite out of incomes are double, triple taxation. Income tax, State income tax, social security tax, unemployment tax, gas tax, sales tax, city tax, taxes takes a considerable % out of earnings that were at one time very little.
The same can be said for the cost of cars, regulations equal taxation and a new car manufacturered with hundreds if regulations and many or most are in place not of necessity but rather extremists groups increasing the cost of manufacturing by a factor of 5-7 then add transport tax, EPA tax, sales tax. The city collects tax from the dealer for the sale, the state collects sales tax, and the feds get their pound of flesh from regulatory taxation.
Sales tax was. 05% and now many states have sales tax upwards to 10.% big swing from the 1960's

Airforceone

We do have laws but it appears they get ignored.

I think the biggest loss to the American worker is the right wing opposition to collective bargaining. Organized Unions fought for better wages, reasonable hours, safer working conditions, stopped Child labor, gave health benefits, aid to injured workers, improved sanitary working conditions.

We have listened to to the right wing demonizing Unions for years. It Started with Ronald Reagan with the Air Traffic Controlers union and there strike.

NLRB was created in 1935 to protect rights of Employees and employers, and to encourage collective bargaining. This passed both houses easily by the left and right.

Fair Labor Standards Act which established the Minimum Wage, Overtime pay, and Child Labor standards. Passed both houses easily.

OHSA Occupation Health And Safty Act Protects workers from health and safety hazards.

These laws were created by unions to protect American workers.

Davis Beacon Act requiring prevailing wages on all government funded jobs.

Trump promised that he would protect the American workers and what he has done is just the opposite.

It’s quit interesting to read how Trump is dismantling the NLRB, Fair Labor and Standards Act, OSHA, EPA, NLRB judges. He has torn into there budgets to the extent that there is no oversight in these agencies.

Trump has frozen equal pay act. There are so many actions Trump has taken to deregulate any form of laws that are fair to the workers of this country

It’s extensive but very depressing reading how Trump is attacking the American workers

Airforceone

As I read through you’re post it really is bleak when you read the different forms of taxation. Is it fair probably not. Does everybody pay there fair share absolutely not.

So let’s break out each form of taxation. We do receive services for our taxes paid.

Income tax: allows our government to pay for the safety of this country, defense budget, homeland security, TSA, Roads and bridges, immigration, CIA, FBI, education, Medicaid, healthcare, and other agencies. We receive value for our tax dollars. I perceive that the amount of tax funds paid does it equal the services we receive and why is it some people are exempt from taxes and some people are not.

Corporations fund a smaller share of overall government operations than they use to. The last stats put out in 2015 the fed collected $343 billion 10.6%. In the 1950’s it was 33%while payroll taxes increased. For an example if you earned $50,000 to $99,000 you paid 14.2%. If you earned $100,000 to $199,000 you paid 21.9%. So it’s the middle class that pays the largest share of federal taxes. Is it fair of course not. Our government has grown to meet the needs for all citizens. For example, is healthcare a right or a privilege, education is it a right or a privilege. So what works capitalism or socialism. Or a combination of both.

We force our capitalist to pay higher wages, they just charge more for goods and services so now inflation kicks in. Capitalism’s main focus is profit.

I could go through each tax mentioned gas tax (Road repairs) State taxes cost of running individual states, SS tax retirement, and so on and so on.

Our government has grown and I think it’s time to institute eliminating all these taxes and create a flat tax on the state level and the federal level. All these tax loopholes and tax havens need to be eliminated.

If I earn $110,000 I don’t mind paying 20% when Exxon earns $48 billion in a quarter why not pay 20%, Pepco and GE are on the Fortune 500 list but actually have a negative tax base.

These are just examples you’re post gives a bleak view of how state, Local and federal revenue is raised. But we do receive services but why should I be paying 22% and GE pays zero.

We have a gas tax to fund Road repairs. It’s 18 cents which was increased by Reagan who the perception was Reagan never raised taxes because he called it a user fee not a tax. But the CEO of GE received a $35 million bonus and I received an modus wage increase and he pays the same as me for a gallon of gas.

There are many more examples. But a flat tax I believe is the answer with a mandatory clause of balancing the budget.

Republicans point at entitlement programs as the cause of our deficit. I point at both left and right spending when republicans create wealthy tax cuts (Lost Tax Revenue) and wars which are unpaid for created the largest portion of the deficit.

We have a gas tax for our roads, why not a war tax if we go to war.

But it can be debated if we increase wages the capitalist increase cost of goods and services. (Inflation kicks in) If we attempt to create wage and price control we are socialist.

I am not sure now with the massive size of government is there really an answer. The size of government has grown because in 1920 the population was 100 million people we now have 324 million people. We needed more schools more roads and so on. Everything grew there are so many reasons for higher taxes and other forms of taxation to raise revenue.

But thanks for you’re well thought out post

jack sequim wa Loc: Blanchard, Idaho

Airforceone, I greatly appreciate your reply, rationale thought process I have mostly heard (flat tax) from the right. I would say flax tax and each state forced to have voters and panels disable so many not so thought out government arms. California is the model for what not to do and how to destroy a business base as a result of decades of some of the worst possible decisions a group of morons could make. Washington state is moving in the same direction.
The federal government has taken on fiscally giant dollar entities that should be managed at the state level and the amount of duplication if removed, I gave heard could reduce needless spending by as much as 40%. Oversight and accountability no longer have meaning in our state and federal government.
With the complexity of state and federal its difficult not to wonder into dozens of meaningful tangents to discuss.
I am in agreement on flat tax, and how taxes are intended to benefit citizens.
Trump makes a good point, when bids go out to build a road it can take well over a decade for the winning bid to go through the permit process costing in many cases tens of thousands to hundreds of thousands of dollars, by the time the permit debacle is complete the bid is no longer valid often costing millions to billions more. Tax payers pay, Opps let's add ten cents tax to gas so we can cover the cost overruns. That is a completely broken system.

Airforceone

Thank you for you’re response and at least we can find common ground on tax issues. In most cases with doing these projects on the state level there are states that just cannot afford these massive projects.

But I do disagree with Trump on the issue of the permit process. It does not take 10 years to obtain a permit he flat out lied.

The permit process on average takes approximately 4.7 to 2 years depending on the size and type of project.

The actual permit process on infrastructure projects begin in the early stages of the project being engineered because it starts with environmental studies that are taking place during the engineering process. So it does span on average 4.7 years.

The General Accountability Office study actually indicated it takes on average 4.6 years.

The GAO office study put the average time frame at 4.6 years. And actual engineering and review times vary widely based on the type and scope of a project, then factor in environmental issues it’s still on average from 2 years to 4.7 years.

Trump used the very high end type project with major environmental issues but these are very few. But Trumps own White House aides to council on environmental Quality said the average time frame is only 2 years to 5.6 years depending on size and scope.

So if you’re building a couple of hundred miles of roads can you imagine the issues when you’re engineering, then environmental studies, test Borings, through mountains, and bridges. Now don’t forget the permit process starts early during the engineering process. They submit 20% drawings, 50% drawings, 70% drawings then final permit drawings which when 100% permit drawings are complete the permit is usually issued.

Trump told you the Empire State Building was built in 1 year which was wrong it was 1 year
And 45 days. But what Trump did not tell you was the engineering took at least 1year the permit process took 4 months. But the Contractor ordered all the materials and equipment needed to put that building up which was estimated to be almost 2 years between engineering, bid process, equipment specs and ording of all materials before the project started.

Trump lied and people believe him.

Just on a smaller basis I owned a design build firm for 27 years. A 1200 sg foot computer room only took me 10 to 12 weeks to build but the engineering took 4 to 6 months of meetings with the owner then ordering of all equipment prior to starting construction. In most cases it takes longer to engineer a building then the actual construction time.

Let’s look at the Trump Wall when Trump says he will build it in 2 years. That’s crazy talk it will take a minimum of 10 years to engineer and environmental studies. But what Trump doesn’t mention is court litigation of taken land by Eminent domain. The water rights between Mexico and the US needs to be renegotiated. Don’t forget the Colorado river flows through Mexico into the Rio Grande, the Mexican Riverflows downstream to the Texas border which also meets up in the Rio Grande, that’s how Mexico delivers water to the US under a treaty signed in 1944. But right now the US and Mexican Government are at odds on the Trump Wall. So with the potential for major water shortages along the Colorado river water will become a serious problem for those farmers along our Southern border so they will be fighting this wall and the US attempts at eminent domain. It was estimated between eminent domain, negotiating water rights, environmental studies engineering it could take 20 years before construction starts. And what happens if Mexico shuts down the water from the Mexico River. Have you heard Trump even mention these logistics to this wall. Trump has told you he will build it in two years. Not to mention the torrain and getting all the equipment and materials to these remote areas. Trump originally told his supporters it would cost $7 billion and Mexico will pay, then went to $11 billion then he went to $18 billion now it’s $26 billion but actual preliminary estimates is $46 billion.

But thank you for you’re response I hope this gives you a little bit to think about when Trump makes these comments.