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Article V - Why States Can't Prevent a Runaway Convention - WARNING !
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Sep 20, 2017 12:27:15   #
Sicilianthing
 
Why States Can’t Prevent a Runaway Convention
By: PUBLIUS HULDAH — SEPTEMBER 17, 2017

The danger of an Article V convention (which made James Madison “tremble”, caused Alexander Hamilton “dread”, and Chief Justice John Jay to say that another convention would impose an “extravagant risque”) is this: the delegates to the convention can run away: instead of proposing amendments to our existing Constitution, they can write a completely new Constitution with a new - and easier - mode of ratification. 1

The convention lobby implicitly acknowledges this danger when they say State Legislatures should pass “unfaithful delegate” laws to control delegates. 2

Accordingly, Wyoming passed a delegate law earlier this year which purports to empower the WY Legislature to “immediately recall” any delegate who makes an “unauthorized vote” at the convention, and to charge with a felony any delegate who fails to follow the WY Legislature’s instructions on what he may do at the convention.

The Texas delegate law purports to make “invalid” any “unauthorized vote” at the convention, and to empower the TX Legislature to recall any delegate who violates his instructions.

But Tennessee takes the cake with its delegate law: Not only does the TN law purport to “void” votes cast at the convention by TN delegates which are outside the instructions or limits placed on the delegates by the TN Legislature - and then to prosecute such delegates for a felony; the TN law also asserts that if all TN delegates vote or “attempt to vote” outside the scope of the instructions or limits, TN’s previously filed applications for an Article V convention are to be treated as “having no effect at all”.

Other States have passed similar laws.

Such laws are contrary to our Founding Principles and are based on false assumptions. Accordingly, they are unenforceable and ineffective.

Self-evident Rights and the Declaration of Independence
The Declaration of Independence is the Fundamental Act of our Founding.3

It declares that all men are created equal; our rights are bestowed by God; our rights are unalienable; and the purpose of government is to secure the rights God gave us.

The Declaration is not “law” – it is higher than law, for it sets forth The Divine Standard which a Constitution - and the laws made pursuant to the Constitution - must meet.

It also declares that a People have the self-evident right to throw off their government and set up a new one.

With that Principle firmly in mind, let’s look at our first amendments convention; and then, at State unfaithful delegate laws.

The federal convention of 1787
After our Revolution, we operated under our first Constitution, the Articles of Confederation. But there were defects in the Articles, so on Feb. 21, 1787, the Continental Congress called a convention to be held in Philadelphia “for the sole and express purpose of revising the Articles of Confederation”. The States also drafted instructions which purported to restrict delegates to proposing amendments.

But the delegates ignored their instructions and wrote a new Constitution [the one we now have].

In Federalist No. 40 (15th para), Madison invoked the Declaration of Independence and claimed, as justification for what they did,

“…the transcendent and precious right of the people to ‘abolish or alter their governments as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness,’…”

Yet State unfaithful delegate laws claim a power to divest The Representatives of the People - and to criminally prosecute them for exercising - what the Fundamental Act of our Founding declares is a “self-evident” right”!

And what if the delegates make their proceedings secret?
The State Legislators who vote for unfaithful delegate laws assume they will be able to know what is going on every minute of every day of the convention.

But Madison’s Journal of the Federal Convention of 1787 (where our present Constitution was drafted) shows that on May 29, 1787, the delegates voted to make their proceedings secret.

If delegates to a convention today vote to make the proceedings secret, the States won’t know what is going on – and can’t stop it.

And if delegates vote by secret ballot, the States would NEVER know who did what.

You might think that with cell phones & cameras, it’s impossible to have a secret meeting.

But the American Legislative Exchange Council (ALEC), which “induces” State Legislators to push the COS application for an Article V convention, is experienced in conducting secret meetings with State Legislators.

WATCH this 6.5 minute video of a Georgia TV crew which attempted to get into a meeting held at a Georgia hotel of ALEC and Georgia Legislators.

ALEC, which supports the COS application for an Article V convention, is funded by the Koch Brothers and other mega-corporations.

The Koch Brothers spend vast sums on State politicians (e.g., Texas), to get their support for the COS application.

Do the Kochs want an Article V convention so they can get a new Constitution which transforms us from a sovereign nation to a member state of the North American Union?

And if there is a convention, will armed guards keep the press out?

If delegates have been bought by the Kochs, will they tweet & text to the world what they are up to behind closed doors?

State Legislatures are “creatures” of their State Constitutions, and have no “competent authority” to control The Representatives of The People at an Article V convention
Americans have forgotten a Principle which is the basis of free government: That political power originates with The People. 4 The People create governments by means of constitutions. Since a government is the “creature” of its constitution, it can’t be superior to its Creator, The People.

This is why at the federal convention of 1787, where our present federal Constitution was drafted, our Framers understood that only The People were competent to ratify the new Constitution. George Mason said on July 23, 1787,

“…The [State] Legislatures have no power to ratify it. They are the mere creatures of the State Constitutions, and cannot be greater than their creators…”

Keeping that Principle firmly in mind, let’s look at Article V, US Constitution.

It provides that when two-thirds of the State Legislatures (“mere creatures”) apply for it, Congress is to call a convention.

At that point, it is out of the State Legislatures’ hands - the bell has tolled, and State Legislatures can’t un-ring it.

Congress “calls” the convention (sets it up); but when it assembles, the delegates, as Sovereign Representatives of the People, are not answerable to State Legislatures (which are “mere creatures” of the State Constitution) or to Congress (which is a “mere creature” of the federal Constitution).

The delegates actually have the power to eliminate the federal and state governments – and that is precisely what the proposed Constitution for the Newstates of America does.

Delegates to a federal convention called by the federal Congress, to perform the federal function of altering or replacing our federal Constitution, are performing a federal function, not a State function.

The delegates don’t represent any government, federal or state. 5

They are supposed to represent The People; but in our corrupt time, they are more likely to represent the Koch Brothers (because they have the cash).

Dust off your copy of the federal Constitution we already have, read it and defend it.

It filled all Europe with “wonder and veneration”.

If you don’t do this, we will lose it.

Endnotes:

1 The proposed Constitution for the Newstates of America creates a totalitarian dictatorship. The States are dissolved and replaced by regional governments answerable to the new national government. It is ratified by a national referendum [national popular vote] (Art. XII, §1). Other proposed Constitutions are also waiting in the wings for a convention.

2 The American Legislative Exchange Council (ALEC) claims their model delegate bill “will eliminate the possibility of a ‘runaway convention’ the reason most often cited by scholars for their opposition to an Article V Convention.”

3 Dr. Alan Keyes spoke of this on the radio some years ago; and I knew he had just handed me the Key to understanding our Constitution.

4 See Federalist No. 22, last para (Hamilton).

5 The term, “convention of states”, is a misnomer which gives the false impression that States control the convention. In Rob Natelson’s speech on Sep. 16, 2010 [now removed from free access] he said he will no longer call it a “constitutional convention”, but will henceforth say, “convention of states” (pg.1-2).

This Chart illustrates who has the power to do what at an Article V convention.

Click Below for the Chart
http://publiushuldah.files.wordpress.com/2016/02/myth-v-fact-chart-caavc1.pdf

Reply
Sep 20, 2017 12:32:32   #
karpenter Loc: Headin' Fer Da Hills !!
 
Congress Convened To 'Fix' The Articles Of Confederation
Then What Happened....

Reply
Sep 20, 2017 12:36:15   #
Sicilianthing
 
karpenter wrote:
Congress Convened To 'Fix' The Articles Of Confederation
Then What Happened....


>>>>>>

Huh ? Please elaborate ?

Reply
 
 
Sep 20, 2017 13:21:00   #
okie don
 
Sici,
All I've heard for years now is we don't need one as they can rally screw thing up.
Our present Constitution can be changed as it has by amendments. 2/3rds of the States or 37 must ratify them.
The last was Amendment #27 which says: "an elected politician cannot get his salary raise, he votes himself,until he's reelected".
One guy, a student at University of Texas Austin set this in motion and got it accomplished in 1992 I think it was.

Reply
Sep 20, 2017 14:30:02   #
karpenter Loc: Headin' Fer Da Hills !!
 
Sicilianthing wrote:
>>>>>>

Huh ? Please elaborate ?
They Threw Out The Articles Of Confederation
And Started Over From Scratch
All Excuses To The Contrary Not Withstanding
Any States Convention Could Start Over From Scratch Again

And What Happens To The Union If Some States Refuse To Ratify This Time ??

Reply
Sep 20, 2017 14:33:25   #
Sicilianthing
 
okie don wrote:
Sici,
All I've heard for years now is we don't need one as they can rally screw thing up.
Our present Constitution can be changed as it has by amendments. 2/3rds of the States or 37 must ratify them.
The last was Amendment #27 which says: "an elected politician cannot get his salary raise, he votes himself,until he's reelected".
One guy, a student at University of Texas Austin set this in motion and got it accomplished in 1992 I think it was.


>>>>>>

Noted

Reply
Sep 20, 2017 14:34:51   #
Sicilianthing
 
karpenter wrote:
They Threw Out The Articles Of Confederation
And Started Over From Scratch
All Excuses To The Contrary Not Withstanding
Any States Convention Could Start Over From Scratch Again

And What Happens To The Union If Some States Refuse To Ratify This Time ??



>>>>>>>>>>

I don't know but Keep Buying Ammo, does that answer part of your question?
Use your imagination for the rest.

What is the next most Obvious conclusion Karpenter ?

Reply
 
 
Sep 20, 2017 14:59:57   #
karpenter Loc: Headin' Fer Da Hills !!
 
Sicilianthing wrote:
I don't know
There's The Problem
Quote:
but Keep Buying Ammo, does that answer part of your question?
Nope
Quote:
Use your imagination for the rest.
Again The Problem
Convention Proponents Already Rely On Their Imaginations
Quote:
What is the next most Obvious conclusion Karpenter ?
How Could The Make-Up Of Convention Delegates
Be Any Different Than The Make-Up Of The Congress We Already Have

IF We Should Just Trust The Delegates
Why Not Just Trust The Congress We Already Have

The Constitutional Congress Was Theoretically Closed, In Secret
Would You Want That Again, Today ??

Reply
Sep 20, 2017 15:26:27   #
lpnmajor Loc: Arkansas
 
Sicilianthing wrote:
Why States Can’t Prevent a Runaway Convention
By: PUBLIUS HULDAH — SEPTEMBER 17, 2017

The danger of an Article V convention (which made James Madison “tremble”, caused Alexander Hamilton “dread”, and Chief Justice John Jay to say that another convention would impose an “extravagant risque”) is this: the delegates to the convention can run away: instead of proposing amendments to our existing Constitution, they can write a completely new Constitution with a new - and easier - mode of ratification. 1

The convention lobby implicitly acknowledges this danger when they say State Legislatures should pass “unfaithful delegate” laws to control delegates. 2

Accordingly, Wyoming passed a delegate law earlier this year which purports to empower the WY Legislature to “immediately recall” any delegate who makes an “unauthorized vote” at the convention, and to charge with a felony any delegate who fails to follow the WY Legislature’s instructions on what he may do at the convention.

The Texas delegate law purports to make “invalid” any “unauthorized vote” at the convention, and to empower the TX Legislature to recall any delegate who violates his instructions.

But Tennessee takes the cake with its delegate law: Not only does the TN law purport to “void” votes cast at the convention by TN delegates which are outside the instructions or limits placed on the delegates by the TN Legislature - and then to prosecute such delegates for a felony; the TN law also asserts that if all TN delegates vote or “attempt to vote” outside the scope of the instructions or limits, TN’s previously filed applications for an Article V convention are to be treated as “having no effect at all”.

Other States have passed similar laws.

Such laws are contrary to our Founding Principles and are based on false assumptions. Accordingly, they are unenforceable and ineffective.

Self-evident Rights and the Declaration of Independence
The Declaration of Independence is the Fundamental Act of our Founding.3

It declares that all men are created equal; our rights are bestowed by God; our rights are unalienable; and the purpose of government is to secure the rights God gave us.

The Declaration is not “law” – it is higher than law, for it sets forth The Divine Standard which a Constitution - and the laws made pursuant to the Constitution - must meet.

It also declares that a People have the self-evident right to throw off their government and set up a new one.

With that Principle firmly in mind, let’s look at our first amendments convention; and then, at State unfaithful delegate laws.

The federal convention of 1787
After our Revolution, we operated under our first Constitution, the Articles of Confederation. But there were defects in the Articles, so on Feb. 21, 1787, the Continental Congress called a convention to be held in Philadelphia “for the sole and express purpose of revising the Articles of Confederation”. The States also drafted instructions which purported to restrict delegates to proposing amendments.

But the delegates ignored their instructions and wrote a new Constitution [the one we now have].

In Federalist No. 40 (15th para), Madison invoked the Declaration of Independence and claimed, as justification for what they did,

“…the transcendent and precious right of the people to ‘abolish or alter their governments as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness,’…”

Yet State unfaithful delegate laws claim a power to divest The Representatives of the People - and to criminally prosecute them for exercising - what the Fundamental Act of our Founding declares is a “self-evident” right”!

And what if the delegates make their proceedings secret?
The State Legislators who vote for unfaithful delegate laws assume they will be able to know what is going on every minute of every day of the convention.

But Madison’s Journal of the Federal Convention of 1787 (where our present Constitution was drafted) shows that on May 29, 1787, the delegates voted to make their proceedings secret.

If delegates to a convention today vote to make the proceedings secret, the States won’t know what is going on – and can’t stop it.

And if delegates vote by secret ballot, the States would NEVER know who did what.

You might think that with cell phones & cameras, it’s impossible to have a secret meeting.

But the American Legislative Exchange Council (ALEC), which “induces” State Legislators to push the COS application for an Article V convention, is experienced in conducting secret meetings with State Legislators.

WATCH this 6.5 minute video of a Georgia TV crew which attempted to get into a meeting held at a Georgia hotel of ALEC and Georgia Legislators.

ALEC, which supports the COS application for an Article V convention, is funded by the Koch Brothers and other mega-corporations.

The Koch Brothers spend vast sums on State politicians (e.g., Texas), to get their support for the COS application.

Do the Kochs want an Article V convention so they can get a new Constitution which transforms us from a sovereign nation to a member state of the North American Union?

And if there is a convention, will armed guards keep the press out?

If delegates have been bought by the Kochs, will they tweet & text to the world what they are up to behind closed doors?

State Legislatures are “creatures” of their State Constitutions, and have no “competent authority” to control The Representatives of The People at an Article V convention
Americans have forgotten a Principle which is the basis of free government: That political power originates with The People. 4 The People create governments by means of constitutions. Since a government is the “creature” of its constitution, it can’t be superior to its Creator, The People.

This is why at the federal convention of 1787, where our present federal Constitution was drafted, our Framers understood that only The People were competent to ratify the new Constitution. George Mason said on July 23, 1787,

“…The [State] Legislatures have no power to ratify it. They are the mere creatures of the State Constitutions, and cannot be greater than their creators…”

Keeping that Principle firmly in mind, let’s look at Article V, US Constitution.

It provides that when two-thirds of the State Legislatures (“mere creatures”) apply for it, Congress is to call a convention.

At that point, it is out of the State Legislatures’ hands - the bell has tolled, and State Legislatures can’t un-ring it.

Congress “calls” the convention (sets it up); but when it assembles, the delegates, as Sovereign Representatives of the People, are not answerable to State Legislatures (which are “mere creatures” of the State Constitution) or to Congress (which is a “mere creature” of the federal Constitution).

The delegates actually have the power to eliminate the federal and state governments – and that is precisely what the proposed Constitution for the Newstates of America does.

Delegates to a federal convention called by the federal Congress, to perform the federal function of altering or replacing our federal Constitution, are performing a federal function, not a State function.

The delegates don’t represent any government, federal or state. 5

They are supposed to represent The People; but in our corrupt time, they are more likely to represent the Koch Brothers (because they have the cash).

Dust off your copy of the federal Constitution we already have, read it and defend it.

It filled all Europe with “wonder and veneration”.

If you don’t do this, we will lose it.

Endnotes:

1 The proposed Constitution for the Newstates of America creates a totalitarian dictatorship. The States are dissolved and replaced by regional governments answerable to the new national government. It is ratified by a national referendum [national popular vote] (Art. XII, §1). Other proposed Constitutions are also waiting in the wings for a convention.

2 The American Legislative Exchange Council (ALEC) claims their model delegate bill “will eliminate the possibility of a ‘runaway convention’ the reason most often cited by scholars for their opposition to an Article V Convention.”

3 Dr. Alan Keyes spoke of this on the radio some years ago; and I knew he had just handed me the Key to understanding our Constitution.

4 See Federalist No. 22, last para (Hamilton).

5 The term, “convention of states”, is a misnomer which gives the false impression that States control the convention. In Rob Natelson’s speech on Sep. 16, 2010 [now removed from free access] he said he will no longer call it a “constitutional convention”, but will henceforth say, “convention of states” (pg.1-2).

This Chart illustrates who has the power to do what at an Article V convention.

Click Below for the Chart
http://publiushuldah.files.wordpress.com/2016/02/myth-v-fact-chart-caavc1.pdf
Why States Can’t Prevent a Runaway Convention br B... (show quote)


We need to do something we've never done before - hold a National referendum. The only Nationwide vote we cast now, is for the Office of President, and even that vote may be nullified by the Electoral college. Each State has it's own rules for how it's delegates may vote, but few if any mechanisms to ensure that those delegates follow those rules. There is a reason that there is a lag time, between when the EC votes and the Congress accepts and verifies those votes. There is a reason that there is a lag time between the general election and when the EC votes. Where we citizens see a pro forma process, expecting to know the winner on the day of the elections, there is ample opportunity to change the outcome. Some States require their delegates to cast all votes for whoever carried their State, some do not, as some States split their delegates.

To prevent partisan tampering, we require an avenue where every citizen has a voice. Not a representative voice, where someone purports to speak for all citizens of a district, when we know for a fact they do not. A National referendum, with a singular question, will allow every citizen to make their wishes known without equivocation. As in the 2/3 necessary for ratifying an amendment, a 2/3 majority vote by referendum is necessary as well. Not a 51% majority, a true 2/3. If that is not achieved - they'll have to go back to the drawing board.

This will force the legislatures to poll ALL their citizens, and act accordingly.

Reply
Sep 20, 2017 16:42:34   #
karpenter Loc: Headin' Fer Da Hills !!
 
lpnmajor wrote:
and even that vote may be nullified by the Electoral college
Your Vote Is Not Nullified By The Electoral College You Block-Headed Dolt
Take A Civics Class
If You Are Incapable Of Learning How Our Process Works
---And WHY It Is Set Up The Way It Is
After All The FREE INSTRUCTION You Have Had
Then You're Not Qualified To Vote To Start With

So Tell Us All About Knitting Or Crochet
You Know, Subjects You May Actually Have An Inkling About
And Have The Time To Vote In All The Referendums That Would Be Coming Down The Pike
Only A Shallow Thinking Ding-Dong
Could Be Responsible For Your Un-Thought Out Post

Reply
Sep 20, 2017 19:45:24   #
Sicilianthing
 
karpenter wrote:
How Could The Make-Up Of Convention Delegates
Be Any Different Than The Make-Up Of The Congress We Already Have

IF We Should Just Trust The Delegates
Why Not Just Trust The Congress We Already Have

The Constitutional Congress Was Theoretically Closed, In Secret
Would You Want That Again, Today ??


>>>>>>>

I am not the problem, I do enough throttling everyday just short of saying the wrong things to get me arrested.
I take more action than most people you've ever heard of...
You can't trust Congress for anything obviously.
Please go to the site conventionofstates.com, read and learn there...

I'm not the expert, no one is...but trying the Same ole things as before IS OVER - Flat OUT

NO Deal
Time to remove them all and try something else.

This also leads us to the next inevitable outcome where everyone has to choose a side to fight.

No matter what you guys do
No matter what you throw at the wall to keep using the same ole 2 party sham and D.C. Status quo...it's all cooked
No matter what you try they still prevail and we get screwed.
No matter what has been tried or done in the past nothing changes
No matter how many people voted and even Got Trump elected nothing changes, in fact Trump is consumed, compromised and bamboozled by the Swamp and all it's creatures.

No Deal

Reply
 
 
Sep 20, 2017 20:14:15   #
Sicilianthing
 
lpnmajor wrote:
We need to do something we've never done before - hold a National referendum. The only Nationwide vote we cast now, is for the Office of President, and even that vote may be nullified by the Electoral college. Each State has it's own rules for how it's delegates may vote, but few if any mechanisms to ensure that those delegates follow those rules. There is a reason that there is a lag time, between when the EC votes and the Congress accepts and verifies those votes. There is a reason that there is a lag time between the general election and when the EC votes. Where we citizens see a pro forma process, expecting to know the winner on the day of the elections, there is ample opportunity to change the outcome. Some States require their delegates to cast all votes for whoever carried their State, some do not, as some States split their delegates.

To prevent partisan tampering, we require an avenue where every citizen has a voice. Not a representative voice, where someone purports to speak for all citizens of a district, when we know for a fact they do not. A National referendum, with a singular question, will allow every citizen to make their wishes known without equivocation. As in the 2/3 necessary for ratifying an amendment, a 2/3 majority vote by referendum is necessary as well. Not a 51% majority, a true 2/3. If that is not achieved - they'll have to go back to the drawing board.

This will force the legislatures to poll ALL their citizens, and act accordingly.
We need to do something we've never done before - ... (show quote)



>>>>>>>>>>>>

I agree with this and that's why your vote doesn't count and never has, it's all a sham and used only as a poll to see how bad dissent is...

The Banksters get to decide who is President... and up until Trump they were totally in control until the Mercer family stepped in (where did they come from?) and throttled the big 8 families somewhow and made Trump win....

But even with Mercer and Trump in the WhiteHouse, the Bankster families force Pence (a traitor rat CFR minion) and Mnuchin from the Goldman Sachs Bankster Family for Treasury, then Cohn and others...

Trump has already been compromised before, during and after the voting and I have 2 clues so far and I need a 3rd one to seal my case.

When I get that 3rd one I'm going to write a thesis here on OPP !

I hope Trump is who he says he is and I support him too (but I don't vote cause I know better) but it's not likely,

which means Trump is working for the New Power Struggle (Mercers et al (The New CryptoJew Power Family) fighting aginst the other CryptoJew/Zionist/Khazarian mafia Bankster Families) and that's the only way Trump got in there otherwise the 8 were going to put Hillary in there and continue on their global Power trip and destroy America.

But Mercer and clan stopped them... more later.

There is more fighting coming amongst the Barron's... and they're going to make Trump their Patsy using the FED Exiting Toxic $5Trillion on balance sheets and Unloading Tapering Polciies to crash the dollar and our economy.

Need more time to prove it.

Reply
Sep 20, 2017 20:23:10   #
karpenter Loc: Headin' Fer Da Hills !!
 
Would Anyone Care To Address The Question:

What Happens To The Union If Some States Refuse To Ratify This Time ??

Reply
Sep 20, 2017 20:45:17   #
Blade_Runner Loc: DARK SIDE OF THE MOON
 
karpenter wrote:
Would Anyone Care To Address The Question:

What Happens To The Union If Some States Refuse To Ratify This Time ??
It takes 2/3rds of the state legislatures to propose an amendment (33 states) and 3/4ths of the state legislatures voting to ratify for an amendment to become part of the Constitution. (38 states)

Reply
Sep 20, 2017 21:03:55   #
Blade_Runner Loc: DARK SIDE OF THE MOON
 
karpenter wrote:
They Threw Out The Articles Of Confederation
And Started Over From Scratch
All Excuses To The Contrary Not Withstanding
Any States Convention Could Start Over From Scratch Again

And What Happens To The Union If Some States Refuse To Ratify This Time ??
An Article V convention IS NOT a constitutional convention. It is convened solely for the purpose of PROPOSING amendment/s. They cannot throw out the constitution and start from scratch. They can't touch the body (Articles) of the constitution.

It is a bloody damned shame that public schools stopped teaching the history of our founding and the primary documents a long time ago. In fact, the encroachment of liberalism into our educational system has corrupted that history to the point where a great many American citizens have no clue what it means to be an American, even to the point that they don't know country they live in. However, one college has for years offered free online courses on that very subject. Those who have taken the opportunity to study them have benefited greatly.

Reply
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